I can’t fathom how anyone is against free healthcare. CHILDREN have to go without healthcare FFS CHILDREN. How can anyone justify that?
I don’t have kids so why should I pay for their healthcare
That’s how they justify it. They’re fucking ghouls
The problem is there’s a false scarcity. Healthcare is expensive for people in the US right now, so the idea of paying for someone else’s healthcare via universal healthcare doesn’t sound like a good thing, it sounds like taking the money you need for your healthcare to pay for someone else’s.
It’s NOT like that, but people have it in their heads that it is. And it’s very hard to change a made up mind when there are people rallying against it to protect their own private interests.
That’s no reason to not have universal healthcare.
Sure, some people think as you describe, but they are the minority. We’re supposed to be a representative democracy.
- 90% of Democrats want universal healthcare. (30% of voters)
- 70% of Independents want universal healthcare. (40% of voters)
- Even 40% of Republicans want universal healthcare. (30% of voters)
(many polls, pick your favorite)
bOtH pArTiEs think otherwise, unfortunately
Oh no I totally agree with you. Not saying it justifies it or even that the math makes sense, but it feels that a lot of times when you have people who dissent against universal healthcare the reason I stated is why.
They believe rights are a pie. And if someone else gets a piece of that pie, they will somehow end up with less pie.
Even within free market logic free healthcare just makes sense. It enables people to more comfortably quit their job to start a business or take any better job. It also allows people more freedom to choose medical professionals based on their merits rather than on who their insurer says they can use.
It’s also cheaper for everyone, and results in much better outcomes on average. It’s truly win/win/win.
The only losers would be the insurance companies that would no longer exist. And fuck them.
The stupid thing is that even this isn’t necessarily the case. Even in countries that have public healthcare, there are still private options for those who want “fancier” care. The true statement is that they would only be able to rip off the wealthy, instead of everyone in the country.
Even within free market logic free healthcare just makes sense.
It doesn’t make sense because it doesn’t maximize the short term profits of a health care business.
It enables people to more comfortably quit their job
No American capitalist wants this.
You can be hired. You can be fired. You can’t go around quitting without your boss’s permission.
That’s long term thinking you fool. How does that help my next quarter!? Think of my bonus!
I can’t fathom how anyone is against free healthcare
“We CaN’T aFfOrD iT! wE wIlL rUn OuT oF mOnEy!”
Every fucking time it’s suggested. Every fucking time, you get some clown screaming about how it costs too much and it will bankrupt the country and how health care will go away if you try to federalize it.
And under this government? Maybe they’re right. Maybe American business leadership would just rip the wires out of the walls anyways. Look at what UK politicians have done to the NHS, ffs.
It’s very possible that Americans don’t have access to health care because we are simply too greedy and cruel and stupid as a population to value it above carpet bombing the Global South.
Funny how there’s always money to bomb schools, on the other hand…
And to give to Elon Musk for him to lose. He went down from 1.45 trillion to 970 billion. Like what? Half a trillion dollars lost?
I don’t even use numbers like that in a fucking video game…
That’s the trading value of his companies that tanked though, not money spent.
He never had a trillion actual dollars.
“protect the children” mfs when children
Children can’t work. So they shouldn’t get any benefits actually.
The issue really seems to be old people. And where I live it’s a whole lot easier for old people to vote.
They dont care 🤷
Because to them, the fight against the Others is so profoundly tied to their core identity that they would choose a rapacious trillionaire or low rent pedophile mob boss to lead them despite OVERWHELMING evidence either would gladly see them dead for a nickel.
Anyone not of their inner circle (church, Trump worship, family of they accede to the previous conditions) are the enemy. And they don’t deserve even basic human rights. Unless they’re a zygote/fetus, in which case they get a pass until birth.
I’d watch US shows where sometimes people would get fired on the spot in in a dramatic way and thought it was just artistic license until I realized Americans literally have no protections and can be fired at will for no reason at all. It is horrifying. What’s even worse is that people celebrate this as a “fluid labor market” , as if placing people under chronic insecurity is a virtue.
I have coworkers from other countries who came to America and asked me if the contract they signed was true - that they can be fired at will.
It’s incredibly embarrassing.
I wouldn’t call the US developed. There is development, with the sky scrapers, mega companies and billionaires, but there are also palaces built in South Africa, North Korea and Turkmenistan. North Korea and Turkmenistan have better infrastructure than the US. But I wouldn’t call insane poverty rates, insane inequality, autocracy, oligarchy, insane incarceration rates, corrupt government and legal system, institutionalized racism and still legal slavery any form of modern development.
Developed
Not civilised
And americans will tell you it’s because they are better or different.
Gotta fund the military somehow, mirite?
The “military power” reremovedtion took a huge hit this year too. Really? That bs is why they forego all these benefits for their people?
But…but…hellfire missiles go brrrrrr?
I’m not even American, but what the fuck are you even talking about, no one’s saying that
You dont know this but some Americans are profoundly stupid. By some I mean more than any body can manage.
So just because you dont ride in those circles, dont think for a moment american exceptionalism isnt some sort of self defeating pride that will soon have my country on its knees.
You dont know this but some Americans are profoundly stupid.
Isn’t this the case basically everywhere? Is there a culture or country that doesn’t have profoundly stupid people in it?
I mean, we take it very seriously, though. There I go with american exceptionalism again.
Also not American. You don’t think there’s a perception that American is the greatest country in the West? It comes off thick with a lot of topics even discussed on the fediverse. A good clip that I enjoy watching every now and then https://youtu.be/wTjMqda19wk
Everyone knows about the American exceptionalism, but it exists despite these horrid humanitarian conditions, not because.
No one’s gonna say “yeah I’m happy with being forced to eat dirt, I’m superior to you, that’s why!”
I’m sure many Americans would crow about these more positive things if they could but think about those posts that unironically brag about how “X about to find out why Americans don’t have healthcare” while showing a picture of an airborne orphan crusher, or something.
It’s all part of their true grit machismo, like hell yeah most brutal capitalist hellscape imaginable, if you can make it here, you can make it anywhere. Honestly they revel in it.
It’s like Canadians and their cold winters.
There are plenty who don’t, but there are an unfortunately large number who do
They’re stupid, indoctrinated, uneducated etc. but they’re very real
I’ve had people from all over the world tell me that the US is the greatest country in the world,
They were all stupid, racist and had never been there
Hungary also did that under Orbán, but we were told once we will have enough “national billionaires”, the money will start to trickle down. When the billionaires arrived and we asked when the money will finally trickle down, we were told money is not everything, and we’re acting like “spoiled children”.
Honestly FOX News might be the organization, which helped the term “socialism” the most in the US. When you call every good policy “socialist” then people wanting that will call themself that.
It’s the abuse of the system, the tax hikes, the standard of care given vs the biased care we can exploit now and the amount of productivity lost is bad for the US. Why? Idfk, that’s just what they tell us.
So I guess the only thing we can do is try to cha ge at least one of them.
Remember Obamacare? The socialized healthcare system where everyone had health insurance? We should go back to that.
and the amount of productivity lost is bad for the US. Why? Idfk, that’s just what they tell us.
The US would not loose productivity at all. For any health care system it is cheaper to prevent somebody from getting sick, then to pay for the treatment. So countries with such systems have good reason to have strong environmental and food regulation for example. Hence people are less sick and can therefore work.
The US has pretty decent/good air quality compared to a lot of countries both developed and under developed. At least we don’t have to deal with what India, China or Brazil have to deal with when it comes to air quality. I mean it’s not the greatest there’s still people who live with air purifiers because of pollutants, toxins and generalized pollen but you can leave your house in every single state at any given time without choking or needing PPE.
Food could be better. Food here could be a lot better but you know what it is. It’s the sickening supply and demand. Think about it we get year round produce because we ship it in. There’s an Asian market that’s near me and a (half dead) stop and shop 2 blocks from it. The Asian market has in-season only produce and has an on site butcher. A lot of other countries I hear do the same as the Asian market and I still have no idea if it’s true but we have hydroponically grown food in the off-season.
The only areas in the US that actually rely on local produce are areas that have produce that they’re known for. Like Georgia Peaches, Maine Blueberries and Massachusetts/New York Mcintosh Apples and then those areas are all tourist and rely on tourism. The FDA Doesn’t give a fuck about our meat as much as we’d like to think, I mean our chicken wings can still have feathers and there’s known low quality butchers. Our beef supply is being cut like there’s no one even inspecting the fat vs lean meat ratio and everything that’s lean has a lower shelf life because its more, “fresh,” (after it’s been treated) and the odds of a grass-fed cut of meat smelling like fish is higher than a non grass-fed cut of meat which are usually starting to gray and those are unless you go to a good quality butcher BUT THEN you face a sourcing issue which they’re all known to get their meat from Costco or BJ’s.
Pork is absolute trash in this country, I’ve been trying to stay away from pork.
Nah, been going on probably before the banana republics. Soon as the people of the banana republic fought back, the American capitalist would cry socialism, then the American army would come and squash the uprising. Hey Mr. tally man tally me banana.
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Glad to see some political commentators catching on to this too.
No, there are approximately 190 fully capitalist countries, stop whitewashing capitalism. Capitalist countries also include: Afghanistan, Burundi, South Sudan, DRC and India. Stop with this evolutionist nonsense.
Yeah because capitalism is just how things develop without excessive government intervention to prevent it. It’s a lie to say capitalism is a choice. I guess technically you could say it’s a choice between buying food from a farmer or starving to death, but really that’s not much of a choice. The two biggest famines in history were cause by socialist countries taking direct control of the agriculture industry.
By death toll, number one was the Qing dynasty, very much not communist. Number 2 was communist China. You have to go all the way to number 11 before you hit the USSR.
Lol.
We got fed so much propaganda about this country growing up. Basically North Korea Lite.
The corrupt gop fuckers will recreate the commie folk devil that worked during the cold war, they will claim communism will end America they will turn voting for social democracy into national crisis
They are always lying
Americans also fall for it every time so that says a lot about the citizens
Americans, by and large, are, unfortunately, some of the dumbest humans to ever exist on this planet.
No doubt. Living here is to be surrounded by cynical monsters everywhere you go.
I’m hoping Mamdani can help shift people’s perspectives here.
Obama made Healthcare companies more money than any President before him. He could have given us a public option but the big Democrat donors said no.
So you say, that the US has the purest capitalism while everyone else has diluted it with some soviet communism?
Yes, but the first one is not true.
Tired of calling what countries like Australia and Germany have as “universal healthcare”.
It isn’t. Simply isn’t.
In the case of Australia most familiar with. It’s a weird mix of public and private, with most medical costs covered under a private subsidy model, where your health service can change whatever, and you have to pay the gap between the Medicare rebate and what the services charges.
Doesn’t cover dental, has a small rebate for physio and other allied health (again, private providers, public rebate) and covers a basic check up for eyes every 3 years only, but doesn’t cover most optical.
The hospital system is also an absolute mess of a two-tiered system I won’t get into here.
It’s not fucking universal and I’m sick of people pretending like it is. It’s just kilometres better than the USA, which is the lowest bar ever.
Yeah, similarly in Canada which actually is single payer so yay, but is constantly, constantly under attack by privatisation hawks.
It’s a constant fucking struggle to keep the rich from raiding our commons. They’re always grasping, groping, taking, draining. It’s exhausting.
That’s not at all how it works in Germany, though. Dental treatments are paid, as is medication. There is a surcharge for medication, which is capped at 10 Euros. And some dental options, which are not strictly necessary (debatable in many cases, I’ll give you that!) are not included. Physio and optical costs are also included.
Some of the payments require a doctor’s prescription in order to be accepted, but I would call that pretty fucking universal.
Dental treatments are paid
Nonsense. Dental treatments are slightly subsidised, but even with the subsidy are more expensive than paying outright in cash in France. They are only covered if you’re, like, gonna die from a tooth infection or something, and then they’ll remove it but not do anything about the missing tooth. The subsidy doesn’t even fully cover simple fillings, which still cost more than 100€ even for shitty resin ones. Let alone a ceramic crown for a front tooth which is like 600-1000€. Why do you think everyone goes to Poland or Turkey when they need real dental care?
Ok, here’s what is subsidised, assuming you speak German:
Call that nonsense if you wish, I’m not going to enter into a discussion of that kind.
So clearly you haven’t been to the dentist in Germany, or even read that very article you posted. Yes the 6-monthly checkup is covered, that’s great. But the subsidy for fillings in molars, for example, only covers amalgam fillings. Dentists don’t actually do those anymore, so you have to pay more than 100€ “extra” to get a resin one. The majority of other situations are similar to that. In the end, even though the rule says that medically necessary things are supposed to be covered, in practice they really aren’t.
If it covers everyone, then it’s universal. Doesn’t mean that it can’t be improved, but that’s literally what universal healthcare coverage means.
Universal healthcare means it covers all healthcare. If you’re needing pay pay out of pocket to private providers, and it doesn’t even cover a bunch of things, I refuse to call that universal - and so should you.
Universal means nothing, otherwise.
Medicare defenders really need to dream bigger, damn.
Universal healthcare means it covers all healthcare.
I mean, no. It doesn’t. And as an example off the top of my head, the NHS in the UK doesn’t cover dental. It’s still universal health care.
I’m not defending Medicare or anything here, id appreciate it if you didn’t put words in my mouth.
Simply explaining what the term means.
We shall have to agree to disagree then. Calling a healthcare system that doesn’t cover all available healthcare universal just doesn’t make sense.
I can accept that’s what people call it, but that’s about it.
I think they’re wrong.
By this logic the USA has universal healthcare, because a hospital must treat you for emergency, life-saving care, even if you’re unable to pay.
So, the definition is absurd if it’s just that a system covers everyone.
The definitions I’ve seen mention the ability for anyone to receive medical care without fear of financial hardship. Which I guess also isn’t a perfect definition.
No it doesn’t. What would that even mean. Where do you draw the line between what is and isn’t medical care. You could classify any country as either having universal healthcare coverage or no healthcare coverage at all under that definition.
Healthcare is whatever medical professionals deem medically necessary, that’s where I would draw the line.
I’m no doctor, but dentistry and optometry is most certainly medically necessary (at least, this is my understanding of what medical professionals say!), and those are largely NOT covered under Medicare.
“Universal” is a superlative. It makes sense that it should mean everything, yes.
Universal is a synonym of all. I’m dying on this hill.
Even if people think it’s just it ‘covers’ everyone, how much it covers is relevant. My hyperbolic example is that just because it covers everyone doesn’t mean we should call it universal if it doesn’t cover everything (or extremely little in the case of the US). I’m saying, if we want to call it universal, it should actually cover you for everything you might actually need for your healthcare.
That is objectively not the case. Medicare does not cover you for a bunch of things, and as discussed in a previous comment, makes you wait months and months for medically necessary but you-won’t-die-today surgery, when we have more than enough wealth in this country to pay for it all.
Universal healthcare should cover all medically necessary healthcare in a timely fashion, private health should receive no subsidy, and you should be ineligible for public healthcare when on private, to make it compete (it won’t, it’ll immediately be a bad deal, which it is).
This isn’t pie-in-the-sky requests, it’s possible, it would just hurt the profits of private insurance companies, and private clinic owners who charge way above the rebate and make you pay out of pocket costs. We can and absolutely should create a fully public system, where people are employees of the health service.
Just pay medical staff properly so we don’t lose anyone to overseas, and let’s make it universal.
Medicare isn’t that good, is the point I was trying to originally make.
Rant over 😅
Imma be real I’m not reading that. But whatever it is, it isn’t “healthcare for everyone.” And that feels like the neat and simple answer here as opposed to whatever you’re doing.
Aight, healthcare for everyone (even if it is not equitable, and doesn’t cover a bunch of stuff) can be your definition.
TL;DR for you: Medicare isn’t nearly as good as it should and can be, and it’s kinda sad people call it a “universal healthcare” system.
Also no one forced you to reply. Am I supposed to feel bad for writing out my reasoning in a medium length comment? Just seems like you want to say someone is wrong without actually justifying your position.
I gave a reason and it fit in a couple sentences. Less is more my guy, no need to get salty about it.
America has always been behind the rest of the world. They still do slavery for fuck sake.
So does Europe. Modern slavery just doesn’t use chains.
Ha, you think the rest of the world doesn’t profit off slavery…
Who said that? There a ghost in here? Which countries have it baked into their constitutions? 13th amendment.
Are you kidding me?
Brazil - slavery was abolished by ordinary law in 1888 (“Lei Áurea”), predating the current 1988 constitution, which then enshrined the prohibition directly in its text.
Mauritania - abolished slavery by decree in 1981, then criminalized it more explicitly through legislation in 2007, though this was statutory rather than a constitutional amendment.
India (1950) – Article 23 prohibits trafficking in human beings and forced labor, including slavery-like practices. South Africa (1996) – Section 13 of the Bill of Rights bans slavery, servitude, and forced labor.
Germany – Article 1 combined with statutory law prohibits slavery under the broader human dignity clause.
Ghana (1992) – explicitly prohibits slavery in its Bill of Rights.
Ethiopia (1995) – its constitution includes a slavery prohibition.
Many Latin American constitutions (Colombia, Peru, Venezuela, etc.) contain explicit anti-slavery clauses, often tracing back to 19th-century independence-era abolition.
People acting like America is the only country that had slaves. Here’s another list for your edification!
Portugal - among the earliest and largest traders, especially to Brazil
Britain - dominant by the 18th century, especially via Liverpool and Bristol
France - significant role, especially to the Caribbean (Saint-Domingue/Haiti)
Spain - mainly through licensing other nations (asiento system) to supply its colonies
Netherlands - major early trader, especially via the Dutch West India Company
Denmark - smaller but notable participant.
And what country has the most stringent laws concerning slavery and human trafficking that would be America. We hate human traffickers more than we hate pedophiles around here.
Are you fucking joking lmao. Those are all countries which have banned slavery.
America has never banned slavery. In fact, they baked it into the constitution.
Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States
Fucking disgusting country that still uses hundreds of thousands of slaves to this day!!
I’ve already addressed the constitutional aspect of slavery in the United States.
There is no form of slavery in the U.S. that is supported by either the government or the general public.
Slavery and human trafficking are among the most serious crimes you can commit in America and are prosecuted aggressively with severe penalties.
We do not have legal slavery. What we do have is significant wealth and wage inequality, which is an entirely different discussion worth having, just not here.
At this point, it feels like you just want to take cheap shots at America. That’s your prerogative. We allow that sort of criticism here. Criticize the country all you want.
We’re still better than you.
Oh no, :( what’s happening to all of your little comments? Bye bye comments! Bye bye mechoman!
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Nothing, nothing happened to any of my comments.
There’s no active slave labor in the United States. That is an objective fact.
According to the ACLU, prisoners at the Louisiana State Pen (Angola) pick cotton and sugarcane for $0.02/hr. Many must work for up to 3 years without pay to be eligible for this wage.
Those who “choose” not to work are placed in solitary confinement, a practice that is considered torture in most first world nations.
You can read the full report here Captive Labor: Exploitation of Incarcerated Workers
Ok. Louisiana has one of the worst prison systems in America. The judicial system is irrationally racist against black men.
Congratulations on pinpointing one of the horrendous social issues that we have in America.
What country are you from?
America is one of the worst empires to ever exist lmao, you’re not better than anyone at all.
Slavery and human trafficking aren’t crimes at all in America. The president is a pedophile rapist human trafficker, and you use prisoners as slaves in almost every state!! You know nothing of your own country, or you’re willfully evil to defend it!
Right.
I’ve done absolutely nothing to defend my country. In fact, I’ve been criticizing it quite heavily.
I’ll correct you once again: slavery, pedophilia, and human trafficking are all extremely illegal in this country, and they are punished severely.
The fact that the people associated with the Epstein files, including our own president have not been arrested, held accountable, and punished is a black stain on our history that we may never fully recover from.
So, what country are you from?
all cool for down with murcia but please tell me where actually is. Yeah we have underpaid workers but slavery?
You should be embarrassed for not knowing about the 13th amendment.
you should be ashamed not knowing present vs past tense
Oh yeah they get rid of the part about using prisoners as slaves when I wasn’t looking? Lol
I think prison reform is a seperate topic from slavery, but you do give up your rights in prison, which would include the 13th amendment. Many countries have much more terrible prison conditions.
Either way in the 1800s slaves didn’t have as much of a choice to be a slave, today prisoners mostly had a choice before committing a crime (though I acknowledge not every person in jail deserves or should be there). I just think that should be awknowledge before saying America still has “slaves”. At the end of the day the law is what allows us to have the society we have today (for better or worse).
Lmfao. You’re disgusting. No, not very many countries have worse prisons than America, At least not other comparable western nations.
How is that disgusting? Admitting that you lose rights in prison? You’re literally just trolling for a reaction. I can think of a handful of EU countries with much smaller populations that have it better. Comparing black slaves from the 1800s to modern day prisoners is what’s disgusting
I’m guessing prison inmates, as outlined in tge constitution?
America is full of uneducated monsters who are too dumb to have a functional democracy
It’s more that they’re diseducated IMO. To me, throwing vitriol at people because a decades-long campaign from the most powerful people on earth succeeded feels so similar to blaming the enslaved for not freeing themselves.
It’s really frustrating and it blows to see so many people harming themselves out of hate, fear, and illiteracy, but how are they to know better? All they see elsewhere is hate against them for something they’ve been trained to identify with; no human responds to that.
I’m not trying to come off as offensive to insulting. I think the above is worth considering and might be productive :)
ETA: I want to respond to a lot of these replies but I’m at work so it’ll be a bit. Lots of good conversation to be had :)
I’m American and I know better. What’s their excuse? Right and wrong are pretty universal. It shouldn’t take years of proper education to know not to hate someone for being born a certain way.
If you ‘know better’ then what’s stopping you from recognizing that not everyone is cut from the same cloth?
A black person raised to believe in the Nation of Islam might be more militant in their support of black rights — does that make what they believe right? No, the NoI is a cult that believes white people were born in a lab 7000 years ago (amongst other crazy bullshit). MAGA is also a cult. You should read up on what defines cults and what kind of people are susceptible to them.
I’m not exactly making excuses for them, I hate MAGA. Nuance here, however, is very important.
You nailed it; recognizing nuance is a critical skill
This feels very much like the booststraps the owner class expects you to clime the social ladder with.
It shouldn’t take years of proper education to know not to hate someone for being born a certain way.
No one said anything else. My claim was that there exists a well established, well funded, and effective institution that diseducates this into people that wouldn’t otherwise have it.
Edit: formatting
Okie dokie
I agree with you mostly but don’t agree in calling people “diseducated”, I think it removes too much personal agency. Undermining education and replacing it with religious devotion is most definitely a goal of fascist wealthy class but we aren’t there yet.
Public education doesn’t make someone mentally incompetent, so no need to infantilize them. This “hate, fear, and illiteracy” are all choices they’ve made to identify with.
No one is born MAGA, they choose it for themselves. Their lack of self-discipline and unable to delay gratification and propensity to choose the path of least resistance may be preyed upon by the system but they always have a choice.
Its very similar to the food system in this country, it’s all engineered to feel good and make you addicted and overconsume. You still have the choice to eat less and exercise more but it’s hard. Some people are also predisposed to falling into it, so I do think you make a good point even if I don’t fully agree
I appreciate your response, it’s well written and considerate.
I want to clarify that my use of the term diseducation is not primarily directed to public schools en masse, but rather the increasing role platforms like TikTok, television, and ‘alternative’ ‘sources’ of mis/disinformation play as a voice of authority in many areas of life. To me, disinformation and diseducation vary in that disinformation is intentionally misleading/false facts about a topic to form a particular stance such, whereas diseducation primarily affects a way of thinking or conducting “research” to yield more results over time. For example, I believe a religious take on something like creationism to be disinformation as it pertains to a single set of facts on a single topic, but I believe a religious framing of things like the origin of sin and human nature to be more diseducation as they affect an individual’s framework for understanding that branches beyond a particular topic. Probably not the best example; I had a long day at work
I may be misinterpreting you a bit still, but if I reframe diseducation as propaganda, then I completely agree with your point. And it also presents a challenge we will face in perpetuity in the future. The technological progress of the internet has had an enormous positive impact on humanity but also comes with an enormous human cost as the worst of us weaponize it to gain money and power.
No doubt about that.
The beauty of a library is most librarians love their job and are altruistically motivated, which can help when they spot someone regularly checking out sketchy stuff. For example, “The Prince” by Machiavelli being checked out by some 22 year old would elicit a small conversation at the counter about why he’s a bad person to learn from. Those types of small guiding interactions that encourage openness in thought don’t exist on the internet. The internet is also entertaining enough to find its way into influencing people who aren’t as likely to have a conversation like that at a library in the first place. There’s a whole list of small things like that which have previously made access to info more likely to be positive that simply aren’t in place on the internet, and it adds up a ton.
a decades-long campaign from the most powerful people on earth succeeded feels so similar to blaming the enslaved for not freeing themselves.
Yeah, but those people all received a public education (like I did) and have access to all humanity’s knowledge at their fingertips. And they’re still profoundly stupid. That’s not a good look.
but how are they to know better?
Self education? I know a whole lot more than I did when I stopped having a formal education. I don’t think it’s right to just assume that people are sheep by default and have to have good educators to be reasonably intelligent. Especially in this day and age. It removes the expectation of personal responsibility that we should have for every adult.
Yeah, but those people all received a public education (like I did)
Consider the differences in public school quality of experience with regard to property tax, individual performance, class size, and elected school officials, state gov’t, and decade of education.
Not saying you went to a great school or were a top performer with extra curricular opportunities or whatever, I just want you to consider the range in education quality in the US.
Yeah, but those people…have access to all humanity’s knowledge at their fingertips
As well as disinformation. Without an adequate understanding of how to use it, as is prominent in those who couldn’t afford college or were raised before the proliferation of the Internet, this can do far more potential harm than potential good.
Self education? I know a whole lot more than I did when I stopped having a formal education
There are many, many, many life factors that can make this virtually impossible to people, particularly the poorly educated. Again, how are they to decipher right from wrong when wrong is intentionally crafted to discredit right?
For some factors, consider: Poor access to mental health medicine Lack of motivation caused by the above
40 hour work weeks Demanding home life No access to library or internet (or no knowledge of the utility of either beyond paying bills)
I don’t think it’s right to just assume that people are sheep by default and have to have good educators to be reasonably intelligent
This isn’t something we need to assume, and not something I assume. I believe this is widely understood as an explanation of why environmental factors are of the greatest (and best established) predictors of lifelong trajectory including continuing ed, economic success, and general success measures. (https://www.nber.org/papers/w14884) this is a link to the first article I found. If you’d like, I can send a link to my reference doc for a thesis I wrote that had over 60 studies with an aggregate 2 million lives covered with all the same finding, as well as 2 studies that debunked the leading study with the opposite finding.
I want to be clear that diseducation is not limited to schooling in youth but also inclusive of lifelong trainings, exposure to mis/disinformation, propagation, etc. One of the most popular narratives among right-leaning young men today is that higher ed is BAD. Not that it’s a suboptimal economic investment, but that it actively harms your ability to think for yourself.
One final thing, I’m not trying to say we should forgive and forget. This is a very real issue and needs to be addressed seriously, and there absolutely is individual responsibility at play. Nuance is critical, though, and like most things the truth is in the middle.
Part of the problem is it’s very easy to blame someone else for the state of the world and think their group does nothing wrong.
To me, throwing vitriol at people because a decades-long campaign from the most powerful people on earth succeeded feels so similar to blaming the enslaved for not freeing themselves.
It becomes more complicated when the campaign was created by propagandists from the 1940s and simply echoed through time by increasingly credulous buffons with more and more money.
At the same time, the “enslaved” keep signing up to join the military and the police, so that they can leverage their position to get access to the things they are trying to deprive everyone else of.
So it’s a cycle of self-imposed violence and poverty. And it is one that people accept reflexively because it hurts other people who are lower than them on the social order.
Not simply an issue of ignorance but of cruelty.
At the same time, the “enslaved” keep signing up to join the military and the police, so that they can leverage their position to get access to the things they are trying to deprive everyone else of.
At least in my hometown, people are trained from birth that joining the military is a high honor and one of the bravest and least-selfish things one can do. There’s a reason the military aims more recruiting effort towards teenagers than any other demographic, with 40% of the entire military (not just of new recruits) being under 25: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK547615/figure/fig_3_2/?report=objectonly
So it’s a cycle of self-imposed violence and poverty. And it is one that people accept reflexively because it hurts other people who are lower than them on the social order.
Partly, yes. Keep in mind my original comment was in response to another, not a holistic self-standing claim. My opening sentence was a comparative, not a declaration of absolute fact.
Also to be clear, my use of enslaved was in reference to slavery in the USA, not the military which is an entirely volunteer (yes, the word volunteer is a heavy lift) force.
Good, America sucks.
Does all this winning start to hurt eventually?
Is it starting to rash?
If so, it’s the dems’ fault!
Thanks Obama
