What’s up with this straight up pro-china and pro-russia stuff on Lemmy lately?
It’s not even praising the people of China and Russia, but rather their gov directly.
Obviously the states have problems, and the EU to a lesser degree, but they at least have some human rights.
Is this some kind of organized disinformation campaign?
Obviously the states have problems, and the EU to a lesser degree, but they at least have some human rights.
The US has big problems with human rights, that start with zionist first rule, and needing misery and oligarchist pillaging to make Americans have bigger problems than warmongering, Israel supremacy, directly corrupt and rigged elections, or “well first they are comming for the others”, and I still have bigger problems.
The NATO colonies are even far worse. Democracy means rule by those allowed by CIA, with population programmed with CIA values. The CIA programming, and total capture of politicians, means normalizing the real enemy to the NATO colonies as a permanent friend and master. The only valid elections in entire world are those approved by CIA values. Never any need for evidence of invalidity, you just take State Department/Elon Musk view that “we will coup whoever we want to coup”.
Our countries dress pure corruption as freedom. While freedom seems awesome, the freedom to corrupt, lie, propagandize you into oppression demonic evil diminishment of nations labelled less free, and you internalize those wars as a supremacist right instead of the theft of your prosperity simply makes the corruption of democracy too powerful relative to your critical thinking, attention and distractions from your oppression.
Without CIA influence over a country, it can hope to govern itself in national interest instead of CIA allied oligarchy. Russia and China are mostly successful at this. Freedom is awesome, but the powerful’s freedom to corrupt will always result in greater overall corruption, oppression, and oligarchism Normalizing CIA involvement in your media and democracy means your nation is doomed, and lemmy defending demonic evil corruption is the direct result of a lifetime of propaganda.
Liquid democracy is easily available with current technology. Already substantially implemented in crypto currency tokens. It’s the only real democracy. That people each have an equal share in their country’s government, and its revenue/left over revenue, is distributed as a dividend, means making sure there is a lot of left over revenue instead of corruption.
Never seen any of this stuff. Not even once.
Others have given great answers, but the short-answer is that it’s not a “disinformation campaign,” nor is it organized. It’s because Lemmy has a lot of leftists, especially Marxist-Leninists, and MLs both support AES (“Actually Existing Socialism”), like the PRC, and critically support capitalist countries forced into allying with them against the Global North’s imperialism.
In terms of their net impacts on the world, the US and EU far outweigh the evils of Russia. Russia is certainly flawed, but unlike the US and EU Russia doesn’t rely on expropriating vast amounts of wealth from the Global South, sanctioning, couping, or genociding those who go against imperialism. It isn’t because Russia is some moral paragon, but because they simply lack the means to be imperialist, they are boxxed in by the west and lack the financial capital to rely on expropriation of wealth.
As for the PRC, it gets far more support, because it’s the leading socialist country. 800 million people were lifted from poverty, and it’s rapidly improving. Even when the west runs propaganda against them, like the COVID lab leak theory or the Chinese spy balloon hysteria, the PRC is being widely supported by the Global South as the PRC is providing a genuine alternative to the genocidal west.
If you (or anyone else) want an introduction to Marxism-Leninism, here’s my Read Theory, Darn It! introductory reading guide!
Russia is literally conducting an imperialist invasion of Ukraine right now…
I can’t stand this shit when fake leftists defend authoritarian, imperialist states because they oppose the west.
Just because Russia “opposes” the west doesn’t make it any better than them.
The Russo-Ukrainian War is about forcing Ukraine to be neutral to NATO, and resolving the conflict between Kiev and the Donetsk and Luhanks People’s Republics that requested Russian support after the Minsk agreements fell through due to Ukraine failing to keep up their end of the bargain. It isn’t an imperialist war, the goal is not expropriation of wealth, it’s to keep NATO out of the main path by which Russia has historically been invaded from the ground, such as in World War II by Nazi Germany.
Russia is not worthy of critical support just because “west bad.” Russia can’t imperialize countries like the west has. It tried, back when Putin requested to join NATO 2 decades ago, but Russia was denied because the Nationalists in Russia didn’t want to open their markets up to foreign plunder like in the 90s. As a consequence, Russia is forced to ally with the anti-imperialist countries, largely made up of countries in the Global South and socialist countries. The Sahel States, for example, are turning to Russia and the PRC as an alternative to western plunder, because Russia physically cannot imperialize in the same way the west does. It fundamentally lacks the ability to export vast amounts of capital and outsource production.
If you’re going to call leftists “fake,” then you should at least do the due dilligence to familiarize yourself with the Marxist analysis of imperialism.
The Minsk agreement has nothing to do with the formation of the Donetsk “republic”.
Though Russia respecting the territorial integrity of Ukraine was a big part of it nobody seems to remember.
Yanukovych refused to sign a free trade agreement with the EU that the Ukrainian Parliament had ratified, leading to the largest democratic protests in Europe in decades. When he was ousted from power, Russia realized they were losing their puppet, invaded Crimea and fully backed fringe separatist movements providing money, arms and Russian regulars on “vacation” to generate a pretext for the 2014 full scale invasion.
it’s to keep NATO out of the main path by which Russia has historically been invaded
NATO is a voluntary defensive alliance. The only reason it has expanded is because Russia continually tries to invade the former Soviet republics.
If eastern Europe wasn’t terrified of Russia, they wouldn’t be applying to join.
Putin requested to join NATO 2
Sure Putin at some point allegedly expressed interest in joining NATO. Who the fuck knows what happened but he also allegedly refused to apply for membership.
Russia didn’t want to open their markets up to foreign plunder like in the 90s
Do you have any idea what the market is like in Russia? Have you ever even visited? It’s a state run by robber barons with palaces and yachts all over the world. The west couldn’t plunder what Putin and his cronies have already robbed.
Look at what China managed to build since the 90s and look at the failed state of Russia after decades of Putin’s rule.
The Sahel States, for example, are turning to Russia and the PRC as an alternative to western plunder
You mean the gold mines Wagner was running in Africa to plunder for the Russian war chest?
It fundamentally lacks the ability to export vast amounts of capital and outsource production.
You acknowledge Russia wants to, but you admit the only reason they don’t, is that they can’t? So we’re in some sort of agreement here.
familiarize yourself with the Marxist analysis of imperialism.
Attempting to expand your countries power through military action is the textbook definition of imperialism.
Marx (correctly) views imperialism as an inevitability of a capitalist system due to its drive to expand and accumulate capital, but he didn’t define the word.
What’s most disappointing is how little respect is given to democratic movements by authoritarians posing as socialists. People completely ignore the voices of Ukrainians fighting to defend their homeland.
People completely ignore the voices of Ukrainians fighting to defend their homeland.
Which Ukrainians?
- The oligarchs running the state?
- The Banderite fascists?
- The eastern & southern Ukrainians, who, after the Maidan coup, declared independence from an unelected government, and were subsequently terrorized by the Banderites for nearly a decade, with tacit and overt support from the Ukrainian and US governments?
- The western Ukrainians who want the war to end?
- The men being kidnapped off the streets and pushed to the front lines against their will?
Previously: If not for the US/NATO, this war wouldn’t have happened in the first place.Which Russians?
- The oligarchs running the state?
- The Wagner fascists?
- The Russian democrats and anti-fascists who, after opposing Putin’ss unelected government, were subsequently terrorized by the FSB for nearly a decade before being imprisoned or killed?
- The Eastern Russians who want the war to end?
- The men being kidnapped off the streets and pushed to the front lines against their will?
See how easy it is to write this bullshit? And mine is actually true.
You’ve rejected western propaganda, which is fair, but then rather than engaging with reality critically, you’ve just bought into Russian propaganda without a second thought.
What’s your point, that Ukrainians are an undifferentiated mass of Euro stans like our government and media portray them? Because that’s bullshit. We’re not talking about Russians, we’re talking about Ukrainians, including those with linguistic, cultural, familial, and business ties to Russia.
you’ve just bought into Russian propaganda without a second thought.
Do you think I’m watching RT and reading Pravda? Almost everything I’ve read or heard has come from Western sources. Almost all the links in my previous comment are Western sources.
The western trade agreement required privatization of safety nets and general austerity politics, the Russian loans did not. The Russian loans had more respect for the sovereignty of Ukraine than the western loans, hence the decisuon of Yanukovych. The nationalists in the west couped the government with the assistance of the west, installing the Banderite nationalist regime, while the ethnic Russians in Donetsk and Luhansk seceded after seeing their president get couped.
NATO is an alliance of imperialist states that has been led by Nazis like Adolf Heusinger. Its sole purpose is to perpetuate imperialism, and encircle countries that oppose having their markets plundered by the west. Russia is not trying to “continually invade” countries.
Putin wanted to join NATO because Putin wanted Russia to be able to imperialize the global south like the west does. Pretty clear-cut.
Yes, Russia is a deeply flawed nationalist country owned by capitalists. The PRC is socialist, which is why it has achieved far more in the same span, and did not collapse into capitalism like Russia did.
The Sahel States are a coalition of anti-imperialist countries that are nationalizing their industry and focusing more on trading finished goods than raw materials. This was impossible when the west was imperializing them, Russia is not imperializing the Sahel States because they can’t.
Yes, Russia is a deeply flawed nationalist country that, by circumstance, is forced to align with progressive, anti-imperialist movements and socialist countries. Nobody is saying “Russia is a perfect country that is ideologically pure,” that’s the point of critical support.
Russia is not trying to expand their power through conquest, their goal is to demillitarize Ukraine and ensure its neutrality with NATO, as Ukraine is the best front to stage a war on Russia.
Marx analyzed imperialism in its very early stages, it was Lenin that expanded that theory into the Marxist canon and thoroughly established and analyzed it. There are practically no Marxists that reject Lenin’s analysis of imperialism.
I do listen to Ukrainians, support for the war is falling sharply, and the ethnic Russians in LPR and DPR have wanted independence from Ukraine for over a decade. The best thing for the Ukrainian working class is a quick surrender of the 4 oblasts, NATO neutrality, and a prompt socialist revolution to oust the Banderite regime.
I do listen to Ukrainians
Except when they democratically decide on closer ties with the EU?
I want to focus on your belief that NATO started this war and that Russia is somehow defending itself because it’s inherently contradictory. It requires you to believe the following:
- The Ukrainian Parliament under Yanukovych was not democratic so couldn’t ratify the trade agreement, but Yanukovych was.
- The Maidan protests were staged by nearly 800,000 NATO drones, but the much smaller Donetsk separatist movement was legitimate and wasn’t a Russian imperialist front.
Can you speak more to those ideas?
NATO has been pressing eastward despite making agreements with Russia that it would not. From the beginning, NATO was formed as an anti-communist alliance, and even after the Soviet Union fell it has been a key tool in encircling Russia to get them to open up their markets to foreign plunder, a tried and true strategy used elsewhere.
Yanukovych was correct in not pursuing the western requirement of austerity politics and becoming a puppet of western countries. NATO used this as an opportunity to overthrow Yanukovych and install a far-right Banderite regime. When the Donbass region wanted to secede, Kiev responded with ethnic repression in the form of language suppression and outright shelling, shelling which accelerated in the weeks leading up to Russian invasion.
With a far-right regime that is violently Russophobic and is cozying up to the number 1 anti-Russian millitary alliance in the world right on their borders, Russia decided to invade when diplomacy fell through. Russia does not give a shit about extraction from Ukraine. They are not in this for the plunder. Russia purely wants Ukraine to promise NATO neutrality, and stop the ethnic cleansing in Donetsk and Luhansk.
This is the bog-standard communist take. Orgs like The Party for Socialism and Liberation have released statements, same as FRSO’s statement. You are unfamiliar with communism yet are trying to use it against itself.
Did you respond to the correct post? This isn’t relevant to what I asked.
Russia is literally conducting an imperialist invasion of Ukraine right now…
The most prolific invader in the world - NATO - did a coup in Ukraine, tried to bring weapons and personnel to Russia’s most important border near Russia’s most populated parts, and has been conducting terror attacks against the Russian population.
The rest of the world has every right to defend against NATO, so you either have a good explanation for what else Russia could have done in this regard, or your criticism of Russia is not serious.Just because Russia “opposes” the west doesn’t make it any better than them.
The fact that Russia hasn’t done anything nearly as bad as things like the invasion of Iraq - let alone the genocide of Palestine - does make Russia better.
The most prolific invader in the world - NATO - did a coup in Ukraine
You mean when the largest european democratic movement in decades ousted a Russian puppet who refused to pass a bill ratified by the Ukrainian Parliament?
tried to bring weapons and personnel to Russia’s most important border near Russia’s most populated parts
This never happened.
defend against NATO,
NATO is a defensive alliance. The closest it’s ever gotten to starting a war was Afghanistan and not every member participated.
And before you wind up the next “gotcha”, there are lots of dog shit imperialist countries in NATO, but we’re discussing the organization itself here.
The fact that Russia hasn’t done anything nearly as bad as things like the invasion of Iraq
Georgia, Chechnya, Syria, Afghanistan?
And also this is your moral foundation? It doesn’t matter what crimes Russia is committing so long as they never commit more crimes than the US?
NATO is a defensive alliance.
- The Intercept, 2021: Meet NATO, the Dangerous “Defensive” Alliance Trying to Run the World
- CounterPunch, 2022: NATO is Not a Defensive Alliance
- Noam Chomsky, 2023: NATO “most violent, aggressive alliance in the world”
- Thomas Fazi, 2024: NATO: 75 years of war, unprovoked aggressions and state-sponsored terrorism
- Gabriel Rockhill, 2020: The U.S. Did Not Defeat Fascism in WWII, It Discretely Internationalized It
The closest it’s ever gotten to starting a war was Afghanistan and not every member participated.
- Previously: NATO didn’t stop a genocide [in Yugoslavia]; it aided one[1][2][3].
- Previously: NATO […] destroyed Libya.
Right. I agree that NATO tacitly supports US imperialism but you’re also conflating the actions of the US with NATO as a whole. Turkey did not invade Afghanistan for example.
Also the idea that NATO caused the Bosnian Genocide is laughable. The bombing is the only reason it stopped. Your argument is literally “those boys, women and children were CIA assets, trust me bro”
But regardless, I think we’re not actually engaging correctly with each other’s points here. Let’s refocus with some simple facts.
- NATO did not attack Russia.
- Russia invaded Ukraine.
Do Ukrainians have a right to defend themselves from Russian imperial aggression?
Edit to add: Oh, that one was already in my previous comment. Sorry for repeating myself. Here’s a talk by Parenti to summarize.
Also the idea that NATO caused the Bosnian Genocide is laughable. The bombing is the only reason it stopped.
Tell me you didn’t engage with the material I provided without telling me you didn’t engage with the material I provided. Here’s another: Michael Parenti » To Kill a Nation: The Attack on Yugoslavia
I engaged with it. It’s saying the Serbs were responding to a proxy war initiated by the CIA when they were literally just exterminating Bosnians.
You can give me your summary but I’m not reading any more dubious links on the matter, especially when link bashing is being used as a rhetoric device to prevent your argument being challenged.
And again:
- NATO did not attack Russia
- Russia invaded Ukraine
Do Ukrainians have a right to defend themselves from Russian imperialism?
“Was I brainwashed by Western propaganda?”
“No, only shithole commie countries like China have propaganda”
Do you folks not know that two things can be bad at the same time
Do you people get given a pre-opproved list of thought terminating cliches phrases? Because you always say that exact phrase, word for word, even when it doesn’t remotely apply to the conversation at hand, as is the case here.
This post got brigaded; you know, that thing that the very same people accuse us of 📽
https://sh.itjust.works/post/44029753
Some of them even broke out their alt accounts, which they use exclusively for vote-spamming. One of them has a two year old account that’s never made a single post or comment. We ban those.
Anti-communist social chauvanists arguing with each other over what socialism and communism are when none of them have read theory and all seem to be allergic to joining an org will never stop being funny. Plus there’s one person asking for an upvoted zionist opinion, and when another user linked a zionist comment from a MWoG mod, they got banned for doing so.
Genuinely not sure what the world looks like when viewed through their myopic viewpoint.
The “Every Accusation a Confession” rule of thumb strikes again.
Thank you for staying on top of this kind of shit and exposing them when necessary.
CW gross ideation about /u/davel:
spoiler
these people are seriously unwell, absolute nazi bar.
I came across one of them saying I was a degenerate roach in another thread there:
The stormfront / kiwifarms strategy seems to be to set up shop anywhere that won’t ban them, and lets them doxx whoever they want. And there are A LOT of lemmy servers that won’t take action and ban them.
lmfao hooman rights is when you do genocide and jail people protesting it
Time for the weekly question as to why there are anti-imperialists on the anti-imperialist platform from a redditor who joined less than a month ago
I am so baffled since years that (mostly) americans think if you are against us (or its imperialism) u automatically need to be pro China and vice versa. I really can’t get why you guys always need to bootlick one or the other government. Why can’t you not fight for a better system, why do u always fight for a better oppressor?!
Really grinds my gears.
The PRC is the better system. It has a socialist market economy, one that works for the people, and doesn’t depend on imperialism. China isn’t an oppressor. Moreover, it is usually non-westerners that are pro-China, as they are the ones directly experiencing western imperialism and watching China focus on mutual development and cooperation.
You have no reason to reduce the logic of why one would support the PRC down to simply being “anti-west,” if you ask anyone pro-China about why they are, we can give you nuanced and complete reasoning for doing so. By caricaturing the argument of those you disagree with, you quite literally strawman them.
The PRC is the better system. […] Moreover, it is usually non-westerners that are pro-China,
May I ask where your from?
You have no reason to reduce the logic of why one would support the PRC down to simply being “anti-west,” if you ask anyone pro-China about why they are, we can give you nuanced and complete reasoning for doing so. By caricaturing the argument of those you disagree with, you quite literally strawman them.
The comment I replied to litterally reduced their support of China to being anti-western opression and implies those are the same thing.
Not a strawman at all
I’ve stated elsewhere that I’m a USian, I live in the US Empire. That doesn’t take away from my points, though, polls on approval of the PRC are much higher in the global south than they are in the global north. I’m in the minority as a supporter of the PRC in the US, and it’s largely because I’m a Marxist-Leninist that I am.
Further, no, being anti-imperialist does not mean that is the only reason to support the PRC. You strawmanned their point (correct the pronouns you used).
Yeah have at it.
That’s exactly my point. People see their own system is bad, they check that china/real existing socialism is regarded as the opposite to the system they consider bad - they have valid points but also pink-red glasses which makes them overlook problems.
My point is, that we have 3 world powers, China, us and Russia, and ALL of them act in hegemonial fashion.
Yes, us is currently the worst, but NONE of them fight for the working class, ALL of them fight to keep the ones rich, who are rich and the ones powerful, which are powerful in their respective system.
If you consider yourself Marxist Leninist, may read a little more Marx and a little less Lenin. What China does is NOT what Marx sees as communist, it doesn’t even hold up to his imagination of socialism.
No, this is deeply unserious. What actually happens is people like me notice the problems surrounding us, read Marx, Engels, Lenin, and other Marxist writers, see what the PRC is managing to achieve thanks to its socialist system, and then learn to check media critically, looking at the sources, motivations, etc in order to actually see what’s going on. Then we keep reading theory and try to start organizing. Your characterization of leftists as simply supporting the opposite of what is going on is a mischaracterization, one you have not once provided proof for, yet is your entire argument.
Secondly, only the US is the world hegemon. It is the world’s largest empire, and has full control of institutions like NATO and the IMF, which it wields in its favor to secure imperialism. Russia is not a hegemon, it has fallen far from its heights as the Soviet Union. The PRC isn’t a hegemon either, it is overtaking the US but it doesn’t depend on imperialism, millitary or financial domination.
Russia is capitalist, correct, and the US is too, but they stand at odds due to the US being the world Empire and Russia being encircled by it. In the PRC, the working class is the one in charge!
If you consider yourself Marxist Leninist, may read a little more Marx and a little less Lenin. What China does is NOT what Marx sees as communist, it doesn’t even hold up to his imagination of socialism.
This is absolutely peak western chauvanism, undue superiority and self-confidence while knowing nothing about how much of Marx, Engels, and Lenin I’ve read. From Marx alone, not at all counting the dozens of other Marxists I have read:
And I am about a third of the way through Capital: Volume 2. You have no idea what I have studied, and think you can just mouth off as though you know what I know better than I do. It’s peak western chauvanism. I’ve elaborated many times elsewhere on China’s system, but at its core, the proletariat is in power, and public property is the principle aspect of the economy. The large firms and key industries are publicly owned, and as the medium firms grow the state exerts more control and gradually sublimates them into the public sector. This gradual approach to sublimating property once the dictatorship of the proletariat has been established is right out of the communist manifesto. China is in the early developing stage of socialism, and is continuing to develop and socialize the economy.
For further reading:
-
Qiao Collective’s Introductory Socialism with Chinese Characteristics Study Guide
-
My “Read Theory, Darn It!” Introductory Marxist-Leninist Reading Guide
-
Has China Turned to Capitalism? Reflections on the Transition from Capitalism to Socialism by Domenico Losurdo
-
China Has Billionaires by Roderic Day
Do some reading if you want to use how much we’ve read as a cudgel.
~I’m not who you were replying to before.~
I agree that the chinese mixed market model is better, and that the US sucks ass, but I have one question about your claims.
PRC, the working class is the one in charge!
can you explain to me how that can be true while the government is unelected and visibly does authoritarian stuff such as censorship, violent repression of various undesireables and supression of independent worker’s unions?
This poster was banned? Guess you cant ask these kinds of questions on a .ml community.
They were pushing the “lab leak” theory and “spy balloon” theory.
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wait until you see that there there’s a ~200 comment thread on the snark comm discussing this thread in addition!
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cw: nazi bar
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The US always needs a boogeyman to justify massive defense spending
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China has human rights. E.G. Trans people get gender affirming healthcare, jobs, food, and housing. Something that the U.S. does not guarantee and is actively trying to ban transgender affirming care. One of the most famous people in China is Jin Xing a trans woman. The Chinese government does not restrict transgender people in the same way that the UK and the U.S. does. Largely it is social stigma that remains in China, which will and has been changing over time.
And the situation with the uigurs?
What about it? Say what you mean.
The genocide of them that ML refuses to acknowledge.
We absolutely do refuse to acknowledge a thing that never happened, that the US/CIA/NED made up after their “color revolution” attempt failed.
Lol, OP is mad they got their post removed for claiming that Covid was a Chinese bioweapon.
