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Why not both
The fact that people in this thread are bitching at each other and calling each other names over how they approach meditation is sad. Over the last year I have practiced Transcendental Meditation, Samitha, Vipassina, and I am now working on Zazen. I practice for two hours each day. Once in the morning and once in the late afternoon.
From all of them the one thing I have taken away is an increase in empathy and compassion. By calming the mind and noticing the impermanence of thought and coming to the realization that the majority of people suffer from their thoughts which they have little control over, I was able to extend compassion and widen my capacity for empathy. So I don’t understand the vitriol being tossed around by those professing to know what meditation “really is”.
If someone is saying that they meditate and it’s as good as drugs for them, then who am I to judge? If someone says that they meditate and it’s not as good as drugs, who am I to judge? If someone says that they meditate and that it doesn’t increase their capacity for empathy and compassion, again, who am I to judge?
There is a Zen saying… "Practice like a blind person in a dark room.” I encourage everyone to meditate on this informal Koan.
I do zazen too. Or rather Shikantaza. Nice to meet you.
I have strong opinions on the subject. Yes. But I try to be empirical about it. We can do that. That’s guaranteed common ground.
You mentioned a few times meditation gets you “high”. What exactly do you mean by that?
Elevated mood combined with strange perceptions.
Or, to explain by example. You ever used weed, cocaine or shrooms? It’s in that general vicinity.
You have a medical problem, possibly schizophrenia, get help. Meditative thinking does not produce any of this for a normal person.
(sorry. Nevermind. Satire conveys badlyin this medium.)
Heck yes!
Drugs are like meditation but better.
I think that people who have experience with drugs are good candidates for learning meditation. Autists, spergs and ADHDers too.
Drugs are like an airplane ride to an exotic destination. Meditation is like getting a pilot’s license.
Some people would say the price of an occasional plane ticket is better than the hours of study necessary to get a license. “Better” really depends on your goal. Not everyone really wants to get a license.
That said, if you fly every day, it’s probably not a bad thing to look into.
To the passenger it’s all about the exotic destination. To the pilot it’s a whole world of weather, physics, mechanics, skill and discipline. Not to mention a whole dimension of destinations never mentioned in the vacation advertisements.
The pilot gains not just an exotic trip but an expanded perspective and understanding. An expanded world. That’s a big difference.
No, meditation is not like drugs. If anything it’s like exercise for a very particular part of your mind. It can train the mind to be calm, patient, observant and focused. I practiced for many years. In my experience it does not in and of itself bring any sort of feelings of happiness.
Meditation doesn’t get you high?
Drugs don’t alter your awareness?
No
Who said they don’t?
Well meditation gets me high.
And meditation, like drugs, alters my awareness.
Meditation doesn’t get you high?
No it’s a a fairly sober experience.
Drugs don’t alter your awareness?
Well I guess they can. I have no firsthand experience with psychedelics etc. but it doesn’t sound like the same kind of experience.
Well it gets me high. It’s a standard result of meditating. Some even warn us to not get carried away with the high.
And yes, drugs, like meditation, alters my awareness. Not saying they do it exactly the same way but yes, the same stuff, altered.
Well everyone is different. I practiced Zazen and nobody ever told me of experiencing a high or altered awareness. That’s only my experience though and I’m not trying to discount yours :)
The smile at the end makes all the difference.
You’ve been using the wrong drugs.
I’ve been meditating for a while. And I’ve done a variety of drugs. So I speak from experience.
Meditation, like drugs, gets you high and changes your perceptions.
Meditation, unlike drugs, takes effort and practice. It’s also way way smoother. And there’s no ceiling.
And here’s a thing. Consider the act of concentrating your attention. The control, clarity and depth of perception that it brings. It’s something that we all use. Every scientist, engineer and artist uses concentration as his main tool, without which none of that would be possible. Concentration is the backbone of our culture.
One meditation technique (we basically have 2) takes that further. It takes that awesome power of concentration to very deep and strange places. Magical even. But still, it’s just that same old familiar magic that we all depend on, just taken further.
(Therefore, if you respect science, technology and art, then you must pay equal if not greater respect to a further venture into the depths of concentration. Right? I mean, that follows)
And then there is another meditation technique too.
Lol OP is actually right but not explaining it well in the comments.
Gimme your better explanation please.
Meditation is essentially a self-imposed flow state; an artifact of consciousness reflecting extreme focus. It’s akin to a runners high. Its features include ego dissolution, a distorted sense of time, reduced perceptions of pain, and feelings of bliss.
This is normally due to the release of neurotransmitters - dopamine, serotonin, endorphins and GABA, the same chemicals affected by common recreational drugs.
These features are regrettably short-cut with drug use. With training, these states of consciousness can be attained without any downsides (barring destabilizing intuitive realizations like free will being an illusion), though at the cost of not being quite as powerful as drugs.
Think of it this way, meditation is like pouring happy juice on your brain slowly. Taking drugs is like placing the bottle on your head and smashing it with a hammer - sure, you’re going to get a lot of happy juice on your brain, but the glass might make it unbearable, you have no choice when it ends, and the next day you’re going to be forced to pick the shards of glass out.
Weird analogy I suppose, but it helps to illustrate why OP might prefer the slow drip.
At the end of the day, there’s no debate about whether meditation can produce these feelings - it’s simply a matter of whether a person has the time and interest to seek these things out, or whether they want to flood their brains with happy juice.
Personally, I live in both camps; I’ve had profound realizations about my own mind while meditating, but I also like getting zonked off my gourd.
Meh. Your view is born of merely conventional thought and scant experience.
Here’s better.
Meditation is a thing that you do with your attention (aka awareness, sati… depending on who you talk to).
By attention I mean what you direct when you pay attention, what do you concentrate when you concentrate and what gets jerked around when you are distracted.
Attention is the axis of your reality. Its action determines what is visible and invisible, what is important and unimportant. Its shape determines your perspective.
We basically have 2 forms of meditation. 1) a refined form of concentration 2) sortof the opposite.
Drugs influence the attention via the flesh. Like a rough road bounces the driver by bouncing the car.
Meditation addresses the attention directly.
Drugs are limited the way any device is limited. It is crude the way any dumb machine is crude. It is weak as all dumb things are weak. Weak borrowed wings
Meditation is not limited this way. Meditation shows you your own wings and then you pump up those wings and make them strong.
Let’s break this down: You’re essentially saying that paying attention to something is how we experience reality. Well, no kidding. If you pay attention to something, you’re going to notice it more. But that’s not some grand, cosmic revelation. That’s just basic human perception.
I think there’s a bit of overcomplication here. Yes, meditation involves focusing attention, but describing it as the “axis of your reality” is a bit much. The basic idea is that by concentrating, we become more aware of certain things, which does influence our experience. That’s a simple process, not some deep philosophical mystery.
The “wings” analogy also feels like an attempt to make meditation sound more magical than it really is. Meditation is a way to help focus the mind, find calm, and possibly gain insight. But it’s not about discovering some hidden set of “wings” or some grand spiritual power. It’s just a practice for mental clarity.
As for the comparison to drugs, both meditation and drugs alter consciousness, but in different ways. Drugs can give an intense experience, while meditation tends to offer a slower, more controlled shift in awareness. Saying that drugs are weak because they’re like a “dumb machine” doesn’t really capture the complexity of either experience. Both have their place, and both can have benefits, depending on what someone’s looking for.
In short, meditation isn’t some mystical or supernatural process, it’s about training attention in a specific way. The real value comes from consistency and practice, not some grand revelation.
Edit: also, bold of you to assume my experiences are scant, and born of conventional thought - when you have no way of actually understanding what experiences I’ve had.
It’s evident that your experiences with meditation aren’t sufficient to counter your hubris.
Yes scant and born of conventional thought. You talk like a guy who just finished reading a pop-psychology book on meditation.
And your retort consists of “well no kidding” (so we agree, right?) and “it isn’t a grand cosmic revelation” (or “deep philosophical mystery”) (which I didn’t say at all).
Look, if your reality consists of what you see, circumscribed by what you don’t see, and attention draws that line, then yes, I’d say that “axis of reality” characterizes that nicely.
And if your attention is bound by, say, a thousand habits, and meditation removes those habits (temporarily, messily, in the case of drugs), replacing them with intelligent action (a flying-like freedom, one might say), then yes, “wings” fits nicely too.
As for the difference between drugs and meditation. You are splitting hairs. I’d call the one splashing on the shore and the other going for a swim. Same ocean tho.
But you think I’m overstating it and my metaphors are overblown, well, that’s just your opinion and there is a strong possibility that our experiences simply differ.
