Hi! I’m a software developer working on a suite of collaborative self-hostable apps to replace proprietary services I couldn’t find a good replacement for.
I am writing this post to seek opinions and ideas now that I am still in the early prototyping phase, before it’s too late to change track.
My idea is to develop a collection of simple single-purpose apps that do one and only one thing. The first app will be called Simple Notes (mirror), a replacement for Google Keep. Every operation is encrypted locally on the client, and the server never sees plaintext data. I am investigating federations models to let users connect to other instances and work collaboratively, much like Lemmy.
So, my goals in order of priority are:
- No compromises on privacy and security
- Completely FOSS
- Real-time collaboration between users
- Asynchronous collaboration (work offline, sync when back online)
- One account to operate on all apps in this suite
- Web UI / desktop UI / mobile UI
- Minimal interface which my grandma can use, no feature-bloat
- No anti-features such as advertisements, tracking, etc…
- Self-hosting
- Federation
After Simple Notes, I plan to keep developing other simple apps, some ideas on my list:
- Simple Notes - Replacement for Google Keep
- Simple Split - Replacement for SplitWise
- Simple Chat - Replacement for WhatsApp/Slack/Meet/Teams
- Simple Docs - Replacement for Google Docs
- Simple Draw - Collaborative drawing app
- Simple Calendar - Replacement for Google Calendar
- Simple Contacts - Replacement for Google Contacts (suggested by @Churbleyimyam@lemm.ee)
Initially I started writing my own protocol (mirror), operating quite differently from Lemmy’s, but then I realized that someone else already has developed a protocol for this purpose: Matrix. It is (optionally) E2EE, it’s FOSS, and it’s federated. So yeah, it sounds like the perfect choice to me. Also, if I pick Matrix, Simple Chat will just be a reskin of Element, so development cost is almost zero.
So, a questions for the developers on the Lemmy Selfhosted community: do you think piggybacking the Matrix protocol would be a good choice? Do you know any alternative that might be more suited for this purpose?
And a question for all Lemmy Selfhosted users: is there a simple app that you would like me to add to the list?
Bonus question: do you know of any Lemmy community where I could repost?
Thank you very much for the time you spent reading my post!
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Link to source code on my server and GitHub mirror.
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EDIT: I might have been a bit unclear on my objective. My intention is not to just build a replacement for Google Keep, that’s just the first step of the idea I had. My objective is to build a template from which it should be possible to build all sorts of apps to collaboratively work on documents of various types. Simple Notes (Google Keep) would be for text documents, Simple Split (SplitWise) for expenses (because a list of expenses is a document after all), Simple Chat (WhatsApp) for chats (oh yes, I would say that a list of messages is also just a document), Simple Docs (Google Docs) for… well… text documents, Simple Draw for canvas documents, and finally Simple Calendar (Google Calendar) for a calendar (which, why not, is also document!).
So yeah, I don’t want to just find/build an alternative for Google Keep, I want to find/build a tool to build all sort of simple collaborative apps on top of.
What I am looking for is not the recommendation of an app to simply replace Google Keep, I am looking for a template or even just a protocol on top of which it’s possible to build collaborative document-editing apps.
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There’s already an international open source and federated standard for Journals, Tasks and Notes. It’s called iCalendar-standard (RFC-5545) . See the VToDo component, relevant for your Google Keep alternative.
Also check out JTX Board
Pros:
- FOSS
- Federated
- List, Grid, Kanban views
- Reminders
- Alarms
- Location
- More
Cons:
- Markdown only, no WYSIWYG.
Syncing:
- WebDav server (many FOSS and selfhostable servers available). For mobile client there’s DavX.
- WebDav Encrypted sync server Etesync which is FOSS and selfhostable.
These standards and protocols are compatible with almost every software remotely related, including Thunderbird, KDE’s Kontact, and many more. And the feature set matches or even exceeds Google Keep’s capabilities.
My humble opinion is that you don’t need to reinvent the wheel, just build on top of what is already widely used, tested, documented, FOSS, privacy respecting, standards compliant, audited.
IMO, the more self hostable options we have for services, the better. This sounds like a good idea to me.
Good luck with your project and thank you for taking the time to contribute to the free and open source community.
I’ve specifically been looking for a self-hostable keep alternative for a while now. This sounds amazing, will be following the project!
I’ve started looking for a open source alternative to Keep recently as well, following are few features I’m looking for in random order, maybe you could look into implementing some of these. Once I get some free time I can try to contribute to the code as well.
- Cross platform with sync - iOS, Android, Web, Windows, Linux (Sync should not need to rely on 3rd party servers, should be able to use free syncing solutions)
- Free
- Open Source
- Easy to export all my notes / data in a open format like markdown etc.
- Hackable - can make automations that connect to other apps like Obsidian, TickTick, maybe using some API?
- Good notes search functionality, with search inside a note option
- Notes organization, via tags and folders
- Notes linking like Obsidian ?
- Google Keep like virtual pinboard of notes display, AKA masonry layout ?
- Markdown support for lists, links etc
- Runs in the background (system tray) in Windows / Linux and can be brought up and a new note added quickly using keyboard shortcuts like TickTick.
- Reminders / Alerts For Notes
- Pin Notes
- Notes Can Contain Rich Links, Images, Sound, Video
P.S I think notes collaboration might be a anti feature, it takes away from the simplicity of it and I don’t think most people take notes to share with others, I think for most people notes are personal, so I don’t know how many would want this feature.
Honestly, shared notes is my #1 most used feature. I have many shared notes with my family (e.g. shopping list, movies to watch, etc.)
Regarding multi platform targeting, have you considered something like React Native or Flutter, one code base that can run on any platform might be useful at least for the MVP stage.
Also the reason I mentioned exporting is that I’ve had to deal with a bunch of notes apps in the past where the company behind it shuts down or gets sold and then you either have to figure out how to export all those notes or risk losing them and that’s why I mostly use Obsidian on the desktop now cause even if the company behind it disappears all my notes are in my control and are in markdown format which means they can be imported into any other notes app easily.
And the 3rd party integrations API would help in getting more value out of your notes, right now I feel all my data is siloed across several apps, the articles I read and their highlights are in Pocket, my Kindle has my book highlights, my long term notes are in Obsidian, my short term notes are in Keep, my Todos are in TickTick. I am looking into a way to consolidate all the different sources of data to get synced into one platform so I have it all centralized, I saw recently that TickTick added a integration with Notion. I’m hoping to find a quick notes app that can be made to easily sync with Obsidian. Right now I tag Keep notes that I want to copy to Obsidian and then manually copy them on weekends.
Regarding multi platform targeting, have you considered something like React Native or Flutter
I have! I use Flutter in a professional setting and I do not hate it, but I am madly in love with React (not Native) for my personal projects. I tried React Native in the past and I found it a bit finicky, but it was just a “brief encounter”, so I might change my mind about it in the future. For now I would go with Electron to save time, but I do not exclude the idea to build a desktop + mobile interface in Flutter in the future. React (not Native) can also run on any platform, that should be more than enough for the MVP.
I absolutely do not want to go with Flutter for the web though, as I feel like it’s the exact opposite of what I would dream the web to be. I feel like Google built Flutter to give Android developers a tool to make apps with the excuse “oh yeah, it works on browsers too” and call it a day. Flutter basically bypasses most of the things that browsers do and in my personal opinion it re-implements everything more poorly than how a traditional web app would. Come on, they even built their own layout engine and even a rendering engine, was that really necessary? Browser extensions don’t integrate well with Flutter apps, and the debugging experience is subpar. I really like Flutter for Android and desktop apps, and I might even say it’s easier/simpler than Android Studio (Kotlin), but personally I feel like it’s just a big dirty hack in the web context.
Okay, I just realized that my reply sounds a lot like a rant. My apologies. Please consider this as my current view on these tools, it might change in the future. It’s not a criticism.
the company behind it shuts down or gets sold
That’s an important concern. Well, the source code is AGPL 3.0, so there is no risk of it disappearing. Also, this would be my hobby project and I absolutely do not expect it to ever become anything commercial. I do not even plan to accept donations or anything like that. Basically it’s something that I need, and since it doesn’t exist I am considering building it myself.
There is a big probability that I might stop working on it either because I find it “good enough” for my needs or because I won’t be able to work on it anymore, but I would say I’ll try to keep it as simple as possible, so it should be relatively easy to maintain. Also, relying on Element (Matrix) maintain the server code would mean I just need to maintain the client, which should cut the work down by 50%. I strongly hope Matrix will never shut down or get sold.
In any case, okay! Let there be the possibility to export data in a common format! (Preferably Markdown)
I feel all my data is siloed across several apps
Matrix supports a way to integrate with third-party data sources, but I haven’t read too much into it as it was not in my goals. Perhaps a Synapse (Matrix) plug-in might allow to integrate notes with third-party sources without having to make any changes to the client code. I might investigate this possibility in a later stage.
Yeah my past experiences with React Native was finicky as well, but that was a few years ago, haven’t tried anything in Flutter yet, but I see your point. I thought Matrix was just a distributed chat protocol, I’ll look into it more regarding synapse
Whoa, that’s a long list of ideas… let me see…
- That’s the plan, excluding iOS as I do not have a Mac and thus I cannot develop for it
- Certainly
- Certainly!
- That’s not part of the MVP (minimum viable product) I have in mind, but an export function must certainly be added later
- Plug-ins are not part of my goal, but I will do my best to keep the source code modular enough to let people adapt it freely
- We agree on that, global search is necessary, but I did not think about a “search inside a note” option. That seems to make sense, I’ll see what I can do
- Tags are part of my idea, although not the MVP, but folders are not; I will see if I can also add folders without complicating code and UI too much, that doesn’t sound like a bad idea
- Not part of my goal, but maybe in a future iteration
- Yup, that’s what I had in mind too
- As a developer I like Markdown, but it is not on my priority list… perhaps in a future iteration. I was thinking to (maybe) use Markdown behind the curtains, so it might not be too difficult to let users toggle the WYSIWYG
- The first UI that I am planning to develop will be for the web browser, then a lazy-man Electron UI for the desktop as well as something for Android, I just wanted to do something simple. I don’t have the time and skills to do deep desktop integration, perhaps in the future, or maybe someone might contribute this feature if this project actually manages to become something interesting
- That’s not part of the Simple Notes app I was thinking about, but that would make sense for Simple Calendar, perhaps in the future I might consider linking notes and reminders, but that’s not something I am thinking about yet
- I did not think about that, that’s a good idea, I’ll see what I can do
- The first version will not let you upload media, but images are planned. I did not think about sound/video/documents, but I guess why not?
I think notes collaboration might be a anti feature
That’s the main reason why I decided to build this suite of apps in the first place. I want to be able to work collaboratively on things with my girlfriend, and we must be able to do it in real-time. I realize that this will eat away a big chunk of the total time I will dedicate to this project, but it is also the main reason why I am not satisfied with the options currently available.
I think any app for text input should have word prediction. It’s mostly for phone users but I’ve found it so handy since getting a phone where it’s well implemented (Pixel 8) I’ve quickly come to think of it as an essential component that should be available to any app.
Ah, that’s a good suggestion, but definitely out of my scope. Since I want to make a web UI first, users could look for a word prediction plugin for their browser if that’s something they are interested in. Still, thanks for the suggestion!
CRDTs are good for both realtime collab and local-first.
I didn’t know this term! I knew about DAGs which are probably a way to implement CRDTs. I just read the definition on Wikipedia, it says that “[CRDTs feature] an algorithm (itself part of the data type) automatically resolv[ing] any inconsistencies that might occur [in case of conflicts]”, that sounds interesting. I was thinking to try to resolve conflicts automatically whenever possible by adapting Git merge strategies, and when impossible: either just concatenate both versions and let the users fix it manually, or giving users the option to choose line-by-line which version they want.
With this keyword I might be able to find more literature on the topic. Thank you for suggesting it!
I would love a replacement for keep. I’m currently running nextcloud and the UI differences or lack of android widgets are keeping my wife from switching. Most of of your list already has great replacements that exist but for some reason a keep competitor that is current just doesn’t exist
Carnet is a nextcloud app that comes pretty close and but it needs a TON of TLC on the server side. I keep telling myself I’ll work on it but life gets in the way. If you have time and know node/php I would suggest looking there instead of making yet another note app. Nextcloud can handle sharing and has some encryption stuff as other plugins etc. Otherwise keep posting here, I would love to follow your progress.
Okay, that’s a nice suggestion. I was thinking to try to keep the UI more generic rather than integrate it with operating systems, but an Android widget might not be too hard to do, I might investigate later.
I do know Node, but I am not skilled with PHP, I haven’t used it for 10 years and I’ve noticed that things have changed a lot since the version I knew. I feel NextCloud is a bit overbloated, but I didn’t think about checking how they handled the communication part, that’s a good idea. It doesn’t overlap much with what I had in mind, but I might still be able to learn something. Thanks!
The Nextcloud Notes app for Android does have a couple of widgets (note list and an individual note), is there widget that is missing?
For that one it’s not the widgets but the notes behavior. She wants check lists that self organize as they get checked. In the app itself she wants the post-it note like layout
Edit: multi layout that shows the contents instead of just title would be nice too
This sounds great. I would definitely love a splitwise alternative in particular!
You may want to think about using another name for your app suite though. Since it may bring confusion with the simple mobile tools (https://simplemobiletools.com/index.html) which for example also have a “Simple Notes” app.
Ah, that’s a shame, I quite liked the idea of using the “Simple” prefix. Well, naming software is hard! I’ll just keep it as a temporary name for now. Thanks!
Naming software is one of the hardest problems in all of software development.
There are 2 hard problems in computer science: cache invalidation, naming things, and off-by-1 errors.
– Leon Bambrick
Just take a common word and remove a vowel or two. That’s still hip, right?
Power Operations -> Po Op -> Poop
Perfect.
“Everybody PoOps. Why not with us?”
It’s fossify now. Check them out! Original was sold afaik! So steer clear
“Simply”?
Oh, I like this a lot! I will consider adopting it if I will actually get this project started. Thanks!
Simpel. Simpal. Simpol. Etc… :)
Simple Mobile Tools were forked to https://www.fossify.org/
Ah, that’s why the UI looked familiar! I have some of their apps on my Android :P
This… I also would love for all of this to happen but a name change is a must.
There is a foss alternative to split wise.
There’s also IHateMoney as a self hosted service and MoneyBuster as an Android app to interact with IHateMoney.
Thank you both for the recommendations!
Disclaimer, I am idiot with no time.
I know Joplin exists but I havent got around to setting it up.
Would you look a developing a shared notes app, Wanderlist used to be great before microsoft for Shopping lists.
For notes, I have moved to Joplin with the option to synchronize my data using a WebDAV server. It works really well, and it has both a mobile and desktop app. If you’re interested in developing your project, maybe you can have a look at the options this provides. For example, I really like the ability to separate notes between groups, assign tags, create drawings, and the possibility to use Markdown.
Good luck with your projects! To mirror @enemenemu’s suggestion, I would also look into collaborating with the people trying to push the EU Docs alternative. Not sure if that will work, but it’s worth a shot if you’re interested :D
Oh yeah, I used Joplin in the past. Although the goals are quite different from my idea. Joplin is a great recommendation as an alternative to Google Keep, but it’s not real-time collaborative (or federated, for what it matters).
create drawings
Ah, I don’t remember this option. Maybe it wasn’t available when I tried it last time a few years ago. I guess that means Joplin is still being actively developed.
I would also look into collaborating with the people […] Not sure if that will work, but it’s worth a shot if you’re interested
Oh! I just noticed that they have quite a few things besides Docs. I mean… I probably should. My goal is for something much smaller, I just want a replacement for Google Keep, and some day in the near future, SplitWise. Joplin sounds like a better candidate than Numerique.
Thanks for pushing to collaborate, I realize that would actually make more sense than starting a new project from scratch. Not without guilt, I have to admit that I code for fun, and I have more fun working on something that works exactly as I envision it rather than just joining another project. Someday I might learn how to make some real contributions to existing software, but I don’t think this idea of making a simple replacement for Google Keep will be my trampoline to working this way. Still, thank you for trying to push me to do it!
Nextcloud Notes or Joplin (nevermind all the other features Nextcloud provides) tick most of your boxes. They’re more productivity focused than privacy focused, it doesn’t do “zero knowledge” encryption the way you’re describing, but I don’t really understand the point of that when you’re self-hosting and the server host belongs to you anyway. The federation may leave you wanting more and the collaboration might not be “real time” enough for you either, though. If you can build something better by all means go for it.
Oh yeah, both Joplin and NextCloud are great. I tried them both in the past. NextCloud is a bit bloated in my opinion though, I was hoping to go for something simpler both to install and to use.
Most of us here on the Lemmy Selfhosted community are skilled enough to keep a computer running somewhere, expose it securely on the internet (or just LAN, if that’s good enough), and install their own services such as Joplin and NextCloud, but my goal would be to make something that you don’t need to self-host. If you can trust any server, you don’t need to host your own. I like the idea of building a network comprised of both self-hosting users, and “normal” users, like here on Lemmy.
The federation may leave you wanting more and the collaboration might not be “real time” enough for you either, though. If you can build something better by all means go for it.
I’m not sure I understand what you mean. Do you mean writing a protocol that supports federation is a very difficult thing to do? Actually my first draft didn’t include federation as that’s just too much for my skills. But I am considering adopting Matrix, and Matrix includes federation, so why not? They built real-time messaging with Matrix, so I would assume that should be real-time enough for document editing.
There are several decent note apps that strive to replace Google Keep, but they all seem to fall short on the one feature that keeps me on Keep: Reminders. Being able to jot a note and have it pop up later today, on the weekend, or on an arbitrary recurring schedule is the primary use-case for me. Joplin’s come the closest but the reminders were unreliable, and an unreliable reminder is a useless reminder.
There’s also something to be said for the number of clicks/menus/presses it takes to create a note. If it’s meant to be just a quick note when something pops into your head then it’s nice if it doesn’t take more than a click or two to get it down.
One last thing. A feature that I think would greatly enhance adoption would be an option to import existing Keep notes from a Google Takeout into your Simple Notes.
I have to admit that I didn’t really think about reminders. That would perhaps make more sense for Simple Calendar, perhaps in the future I might consider linking notes and reminders. Or maybe it would make sense to implement it directly in Simple Notes? I don’t know, I’ll keep that in mind for later, thanks!
the number of clicks/menus/presses it takes to create a note
I strongly agree on that. It must be at most as many clicks as on Google Keep, i.e. two clicks (plus a few to open the app).
import existing Keep notes from a Google Takeout into your Simple Notes
I didn’t think about that. That shouldn’t be too hard. After the MVP (minimum viable product) will be ready, imports from various common formats should be implemented, and I guess Google Takeout for Google Keep should be supported too.
Thanks for the suggestions!
What I’m currently missing is a simple app for keeping contacts synced between my android phone and Linux desktop.
Excited to see what you do!
I use Nextcloud for that. On Android phone it’s DAVx5. Thunderbird can use the contact via CardDAV, DAVx5 syncs them with the Android addressbook. Fossify Contacts is nicer than the Google contacts app.
The same way it’s done with my appointments. I have also replaced the native Google calendar with the Fossify Calendar here, because it’s less annoying.
Self host radicale if you don’t want the whole nextcloud suite
That’s what I use, but I don’t think anybody would say that next cloud is a simple app.
Radicale is an amazing light and efficient CardDAV/CalDAV server. Pair with Dav5x on android and you are fully setup.
That’s a good idea and it shouldn’t be too difficult, especially as it wouldn’t even really need collaboration. If I manage to get this thing started I’ll try to add this suggestion to the list of apps. Thanks!
I’ve specifically been looking for a self-hostable keep alternative for a while now. This sounds amazing, will be following the project!
same here
Sounds nice. I would use it. Keep is one of the last Google services I still use.
