- cross-posted to:
- technology@lemmit.online
- cross-posted to:
- technology@lemmit.online
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When they dropped sms support I was no longer able to convince people to migrate to signal.
Before I could make the argument that you need one sms app anyway so that app might just as well be Signal instead of the one that comes preloaded with your phone. That way people would gradually get more and more secure messaging as time went on. When sms support was dropped, Signal could not replace an existing app and adding another messing app is much less appealing than replacing one.
After Trump was elected and inaugurated, Signal has finally been gaining some steam here in the Netherlands.
It’s still an American company, so it’s not ideal. But it’s still significantly better better than letting a tech giant like Facebook have control over the most commonly used chat app.
WhatsApp needs to go and Signal is the most likely way in which we can achieve that. We can worry about the American elephant in the room later.
There is threema, a Swiss messenger that gained some popularity earlier since they had end to end encryption before whatsapp.
Unfortunately the source code is not open (even though they do get annual audits with public reports), and the client costs 3 EUR or something (once).
Yeah, but Threema has basically no momentum behind it at all at this point.
I’m putting my social capital behind the option that currently stands the most chance of beating out WhatsappThreema has a pretty big momentum in some countries.
Then by all means keep that momentum going.
I’m just looking at this from a Dutch perspective, where Signal is seeing by far the most growth.You can help making it stronger. That’s what I did in Germany: if people want to contact me, I usually give them my Threema ID first, everything else comes later.
But my goal is not to move to Threema, my goal is to move away from Whatsapp.
Signal fits the bill while expending far less social capital convincing people to use it.
Which?
Switzerland. ;-)
And Switzerlands records in terms of privacy sadly is far worse than most people think - even with the last attack being repelled.
Matrix (preferably on a non-matrix.org instance) currently is the preferable non US and privacy friendly way.
I don’t know - this hype about Matrix reminds me of XMPP which was similarly popular a decade ago. Today, nobody even remembers it anymore.
Which hype? Matrix as a protocol is used for a decade now, especially by various big governments (French, Luxembourg and German governmental messenger, various German states, German and Polish armed forces, German healthcare messenger, various smaller projects in Latin America), is bridgeable (I currently have it bridged to Whatsapp and Signal amongst others) but I really don’t see a hype - on the contrary I only see people predicting me the immediate apocalypse of Matrix for 5 years now, currently due to matrix.org (one of a hundred instances) introducing a premium account model for the most cost intensive (heavily media sharing)users. (See below for that).
Pepperidge farm remembers, and so do I. Lots of people I know use XMPP (Cheogram, Dino, etc).
They also offer Threema Libre on F-Droid for all us folks who degoogled their phone
Until Facebook buys them like they did with WhatsApp…?
That’s just the client, the server architecture is what really matters.
Thanks, yeah someone else said similar here.
FYI, while Threema front-end clients (apps) are open-source (and offer reproducible builds, which is surprisingly uncommon in open-source land), the server component, though supposedly audited, remains closed-source.
EDIT: for comparison, the Signal server code is mostly open source, but things like the spam filter are closed.
Thanks.
And I didn’t know Signal had spam filters. It makes sense to not make that open source.
In my circle of 20 there has only been one instance of spam over several years. 3 of us got the same message.
Signal is based in America but it’s a non profit organization, not a company. Important difference
But being based in the United States it is still subject to American laws, and that comes with the risk of potential American spying and embargoes. Software from any American entity (be it coorporation or non-profit) comes with that risk.
Sadly many still don’t want to switch. My most active chats are in signal now but the large majority of chats are still on whatsapp
If you leave WhatsApp, your chats will usually follow.
Not all of them.
I have a non-official chat group with some colleagues, and a chat group for the neighbourhood that are not likely moving just because I am refusing to use Whatsapp. It would just result in me missing out on those chat groups.
Currently I just have both installed, and that is also how I try to convince people to install and try out Signal.
America is not a monolith. Signal’s developers are very much aware of the risks of operating there and probably already have several escape plans given recent developments. I also think five-eyes probably has access but getting it might be comremovedtionally expensive.
Humans are too stupid to switch from convenience to slightly less convenience even if they get privacy for free. Any amount of discomfort is too much and changing an app is basically death.
They see no value in it. They don’t see that privacy is proactive measure that can protect you.
On Facebook, especially in my family, accounts get lost and hacked. One fine day, it might be someone with more influence in the family who’s attacker might make off with stolen bank information or passwords.
but “that’ll never happen”, right?
It’s ethical because it runs on donations and has a non-profit business model.
Meta likely spends at least $1 billion a year running WhatsApp.
Please donate to Signal if you use it.
How do we know signal isn’t also run by a techbro who just wants our data?
I don’t think that the founders are bad people. If you look at their history of work, they have done enormous amounts of work in the computer security sector. The founder, however, did run a cloud based WPA cracking service.
Meredith Whitaker, who is the president, used to work at Google doing research for “issues related to net neutrality measurement, privacy, security, and the social consequences of artificial intelligence”.
In 2018 she then staged walkouts at Google over concerns of sexual misconduct and citizen surveillance.
The people on Signal’s board seem to be trustworthy people with a pretty airtight background. You have to worry more about the mobile operating system compromising you than do you about Signal.
Does it really matter who made it if you can see the source code? You don’t have to trust them.
That’s kind of a core tenet of libre/open software, innit? Independently verifiable software that you can change at your pleasure.
Can you though? Can I build the apk myself and use their services?
Yes, you can use their exact build environment straight from GitHub. You can also use Molly.im which is another app that i think is a fork? Im still investigating it.
I will use the opportunity to remind that Signal is operated by a non-profit in the jurisdiction called “the US”. This could have implications.
A somewhat more anarchist option might be TOX. There is no single client, TOX is a protocol, you can choose from half a dozen clients. I personally use qTox.
Upside: no phone number required. No questions asked.
Downside: no servers to store and forward messages. You can talk if both parties are online.
You can use Signal with a different client. Signal being operated within the US has no effect. As of now the jurisdictions that I know of to be worried about are:
Sweden, where a law is proposed to add an encryption backdoor
The EU, where leadership is pushing for an encryption backdoor
France arrested the founder of Telegram for using end to end encryption in Telegram
Australia in 2018 passed a law that enabled the government to require communications platforms add a backdoor for government decryption. The Director of the Australian Security Intelligence Organisation (ASIO) said that “privacy is important but not absolute”. Which has the same vibes as “this is not about human rights, this is about human life.”
WhatsApp was previously suspended in Brazil for refusing to hand over decrypted messages.
China and Russia are very obvious problems. Here’s an easy one of many examples
The White House both in Trump’s first term and in Biden’s presidency were pro-encryption. Signal and Tor were US government funded projects. That’s not to say the US is great on encryption, and there have been laws in the past that did/were proposed to limit it. But, as of now, it seems that the US is (edit: one of) the most hospitable jurisdictions for encrypted messaging non-profits.
BTW, I’m not saying using Tox is bad, or that Signal is good, I’m just talking about the US jurisdiction part.
You can use Signal with a different client.
Can you advise, which one would be a good one? Because I actually use Signal too, it’s just misbehaving a lot recently.
I have had endless difficulties with Signal forcing upgrades on me and requiring to sign in on the phone, under threat of deactivating my account (I use it on a PC).
I’ve never used any, but Molly seems well liked
Well yeah we could also use Briar or whatever… but would your grandma?
i’ve only managed to get some of my fam to move over to signal. the other half full on refused
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Not sure if you’re actually sincere or are sarcastically making fun of Tox’s onboarding. That’s a long key.
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They’re probably not joking, TOX IDs are like that. :) Mine is:
CA9A4C1968AA38CC93CB32F31F3682AB897ABA42C90E6F0EA5E1FB541930FD64138B4CC09AD*
(*the number opposite to the first is the number that comes after one, to hinder any spam bots)
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Don’t ask me for a phone number and I’ll use it.
The irony of you posting this on lemmy, which won’t allow posting from a VPN or masked email addresses is not lost on me.
The amount of hoops I had to jump through to make this comment and maintain some semblance of privacy is infuriating but at least it’s not reddit I guess?
But do go on about your security standards…
Edit: BTW, you can set signal to hide your number completely. Combined with FOSS-based encryption keys on-device makes signal the only choice for trying to maintain freedom of expression globally.
Nothing will protect anyone from messaging with a snitch who knows how to screenshot though. Food for thought… get to know your neighbors now.
If you’re reading this comment, I posted it from proton vpn
Thanks, appreciated. I installed Nord on my linux box as well, then set that to openvpn technology and obfuscated servers which worked. I’d prefer to use their quantum-proof encryption but there’s no way to bypass VPN checks if one sets that. I think it’s a mistake on lemmy’s part to even put that hurdle up, but it is what it is. Having one’s real world identity tied to social media is a risk going forward. Data is the enemy.
Data is 100% the enemy and you’re right, lemmy would be moronic to put that roadblock in place
They DID put that roadblock in place. That’s kinda my point. You have to loosen a VPN’s security to post here (as I’ve had to do to reply). It says “no posting from VPN” in the lower left if one uses more advanced/secure encryption. They also don’t allow account creation from masked email platforms like fastmail.
It doesn’t matter if you hide the number; at some point they deanonymized you when you signed up.
Want to be a dick about “hoops”? Get a number that isn’t traceable. It can be done, but it’s tough. I doubt its possible in the countries that really need anonymity of association.
Deanonymized isn’t a risk with end-to-end FOSS-governed encryption (as compared to Meta’s mysterious backend that manages keypairs for whatsapp and messenger). Sealed Sender can even obfuscate the metadata of the recipient for further snooping hurdles. Nothing is perfect, and any participant can silently ex-filtrate conversation data with another camera.
You’re using the wrong lemmy server then, no problem with mine
Duck duck Go VPN connection here
When did WhatsApp start allowing signups without a phone number?
No clue. Never even tried to use it since it’s a Meta product. I was referring to Signal’s phone # requirement being a non-starter.
So what do you use now?
I use Element.
I use both and have been happy with both, but note that Element / Matrix have recently announced the intent to add paid service tiers.
Fair enough, servers cost, you can self host it too…
Remeber, If it’s “free”, you are the product.
Matrix
I like Signal. I even got all my close friends and family on it, specifically to message me because I won’t use whatsapp. The PIN reminders are annoying it enough to be legitimately holding it back from mass appeal imho
Turn them off
The fact that it’s opt-out is already a reason to push people away from the app
I think it was meant as a security feature in case someone picked up your unlocked phone. It perhaps someone cracked your front screen passcode. I know if you forget your password and have to reset it you lose all previous conversations. It’s very secure this way. Bit of a pain… but secure.
That’s not even what it is lol.
And as the other commenter alluded to, defaults matter. You’re not replacing the thing everyone is already using by pitching “here’s an alternative that is better in ways which don’t affect your usage at all, and also you have to dig into the settings to turn off the optional daily popups”
Yeah someone who cares enough about security to switch to Signal in the first place will be willing to go into the settings to get everything just the way they like it, but everybody else will only keep the app if it doesn’t bug them.
They are monthly not daily popups. They are daily at the start kust to make sure you memorize your PIN, then they peter off.
However if you ignore a monthly one then it doesn’t disturb you until the next monthly reminder. What is the point of a PIN if it can be ignored?
Wish more of my contact list would switch over to Signal. It’s nearly the same. I don’t see why it’s so hard for some people to just start using Signal instead of WhatsApp.
Oh well.
Because people are beyond stupid. “i dont want to download another app” - while having an app for almost every other store and bullshit game and whatever
I think what they really mean is “I don’t want another account”.
Hell I’ve been getting rid of accounts lately. Feels good.
It’s super cathartic, I agree. Feels extra good when it’s big tech and fascist-owned as well.
My dad won’t switch from Facebook messenger so now we have to talk via unencrypted sms
“But why, everyone is on WhatsApp”, and also a lot of businesses. “Privacy? I’ve got nothing to hide, what are they gonna do eith my info?”
I tried switching my family over, but being unable to install it on a second device or tablet was a deal breaker.
groups/channels?
TIL I have no family I care to keep in touch with and I have no friends.
Proprietary servers is still proprietary software
Don’t let perfection stand in the way of good enough
It may not be the holy grail, but moving away from Meta-owned Whatsapp is already a pretty significant improvementI agree and it would be much better if people would use Signal instead of WhatsApp, but I think there’s still one problem.
Due to how messaging platforms work, every time you switch you lose pretty much everything (messages, media, etc) This makes switching very hard even for a nerd like me, because if Signal is not “perfect” it means that I will have to switch again at some point and lose everything again.
I’ve been using Signal for years and my database was getting really bloated with media, attachments, etc but I didn’t want to delete it all. I used this and it’s incredible:
https://github.com/bepaald/signalbackup-tools
Just make a backup from within signal, copy that backup file to your PC, then run this tool. The commands I used make an HTML webpage that looks just like the signal messenger, along with a way of searching your messages. You can choose different commands to export however you like.
I used:
signalbackup-tools [input] [passphrase] --exporthtml [directory] --split --searchpage --originalfilenames
So while this doesn’t help you move off your current messenger, you don’t have to worry that your data/messages will be lost in Signal.
Thats a problem with silos (where one owner hosts all the servers) in general. You will have to switch the entire ecosystem once the inevitable enshitification sets in. It’s a good idea to switch to something open source and federated (where many different non profit organisations and even self hosting individuals host many different servers). That way you can migrate your history and contacts to another server of necessary but never have to switch the ecosystem again. Think it how email works, it’s the best known federated system. If you don’t like you email provider anymore you can just chose another one and still keep your contacts and messages on a client like Thunderbird forever. Xmpp and matrix are the hottest candidates in my opinion, but you can check the messenger matrix that was linked in a comment above to see what suits you best.
Well said, the problem really is that Signal isn’t federated. I’m keeping an eye on Matrix for now.
Can I ask why are you so attached to your message history? I recently lost my entire WhatsApp history and it hasn’t made any difference in my life to be honest.
You can save any media you care about. And Signal can backup your chats if that history is important to you.
Sure, but if I switch from Signal to another potentially better messaging app down the line my chat history will get fragmented
Most of the alternatives mentioned have such low adoption that they aren’t truly viable options yet - no matter how much we wish otherwise.
And I say that not as a critic - I actually use Matrix, XMPP, and Jitsi myself. But guess how many of my friends, family, or colleagues are on them?
Exactly.
That’s why I recommend Signal. At least there, people are likely to find folks they already know.
Be careful with that ol’ Chestnut. Circumstances may dictate perfection, where less than such may be catastrophic.
In that case it wouldn’t be “good enough”. But I don’t think this is such an all-or-nothing situation.
I wish I could do this, but trying to convince people to ditch an app they’ve never had problems with and where they all have their family, friends, work groups and school groups already mashed together, how do you convince them? Its not even about me convincing my friends or family, its about everyone else doing the same and when everyone has so many contacts in WhatsApp, that number starts to snowball real quick. Its just not feasible to try and explain this to someone who literally doesn’t care. I mean even though I myself know what Meta is and how Zuck is complete asshole, I still can’t switch off of WhatsApp because nobody I know is on Signal and I’d just be alone there. What’s the point? WhatsApp is pretty much the first app anyone installs on their phone (regardless of platform), they’re not gonna switch now.
Well, just an anecdote:
I simply deleted my WhatsApp and moved to signal. Just did it.
People installed the app, at least the ones that cared about staying in touch. Which was most everyone I cared about staying in touch with. A few of my friend groups also moved the group chat to signal, though all of them do have other ones with the people who didn’t care enough to move too, but I hear it isn’t that big a deal, they had multiple groups before and will have in future, doesn’t really feel like any extra hassle they say.
It’s been fine. No problems. I’ve had more trouble trying to explain to my extended family why I’m no longer posting on instagram. Those I never had in WhatsApp either back in the day, so they “stayed in touch” by watching my pictures I suppose. But I just consistently tell people they can reach me always via signal or plain old sms.
I guess the biggest thing to be scared about would be fomo for most, but I don’t really care enough, I’ve got so much going on already that it’s more of a blessing that I don’t have to be involved in every conversation or meme sharing or whatever.
It really gets so easy after simply switching. Just do it and that’s that. The people worth anything come with you, it’s just another app and another group chat or personal chat. Most already have discord and the meta messenger whatever its name is these days anyway. I know zero people with only one messenger/chat app and unsplintered groups across them. It’s not a big chore, and if it is, there’s always sms.
I guess the biggest thing to be scared about would be fomo for most
I don’t mind missing out on some things, but I would mind missing out on literally all of the things. Everyone is on WhatsApp and trying to convince people to switch to a different app when, from their perspective, their current app has over 99% uptime, their kids, their family, their extended family, their friends, all are on WhatsApp. Its the same for me, its everyone. Its just a different situation in Europe.
Yep. I know the details. I’m tech savvy enough, but I use what my contacts use, and I’m not leaving WhatsApp. Same goes for youtube. The content I consume is there. There is no suitable alternative until the content creators switch. It’s not really about the technology at all.
Just ditch WhatsApp. Don’t give in to social pressure to install malware on your phone
The problem is there’s no one on signal that I want to talk to. So “just ditch the app” isn’t actually helpful.
Just need to move everyone. Not that hard honestly, if you are around smart people
" It’s not that hard really all you have to do is be around people who already want to move over". Yeah thanks for that advice.
I have a very similar strategy to being rich, step one is to be rich already. Simplicity itself.
Why are you friend with stupid people?
Why are you being intentionally disingenuous?
I will say it again just so it’s stated.
People are not going to move to another service unless they can obviously see the benefit in moving to that service. People who are not technically inclined (that doesn’t mean stupid) are not going to see the benefit.Don’t be rude about people you don’t know anything about. Don’t insult their intelligence just because they’re not as interested in a very niche area of technology as you are.
spoiler
Why are you friend with stupid people?
Also note that if you are going to be rude about people you know nothing about, you had better check your grammar
What I said is that smart people can be convinced to move to another platform. Most of my friends are not technically inclined, but it was easy to make them use it, at least to chat with me.
What you did is change “smart people” with “people who already want to move”, which is not the same. You then said it’s not something you can choose (as you cannot choose to be rich). But I answered that you can actually choose your friends.
Never did I say people who are not interested in niche technologies are not smart. My statement can be rephrased in an equivalent statement “people who cannot be convinced to change are not smart”, and I stand to it.
There’s nobody on Signal, that’s the problem. If I want to miss out on all of my group conversations, work conversations, messages between myself and others, then yeah, I can switch. But if I want to receive any messages at all, I have to keep WhatsApp installed.
WhatsApp is pretty much the first app anyone installs on their phone
Is this really the case?
Maybe it’s a regional thing. I’m in the northeast US, and nearly everyone I know uses Facebook Messenger as their main form of communication, even people who don’t touch Facebook at all. I hate Messenger for the same reasons that people hate WhatsApp, but I still have to use it because my entire social circle does. If I want to message someone outside Messenger without giving my phone number out, I use my Google Voice number.
I’ve only ever used WhatsApp to talk to work contacts overseas, and I’ve only ever used Signal to talk to paranoid drug dealers, which is a use case that’s mostly been replaced by Telegram now.
Outside of North America, most other countries’ use WhatsApp as a choice for personal and business uses is WhatsApp. Rest are mostly dominated by Facebook messenger. Excluding China which has WeChat domestically.
How Meta was ever allowed to buy WhatsApp without triggering anti-trust laws is beyond me.
Many of my European and South American friends are having a hard time because that’s where all their families and friends back home are, and it’s hard to get them to use something new, especially the older folks.
How Meta was ever allowed to buy WhatsApp without triggering anti-trust laws is beyond me
It was still called Facebook when they bought it.
In my region in Europe, it really is. EVERYONE uses WhatsApp. I’m not sure the last time I saw someone use SMS, its all WhatsApp. iOS, Android, its all there.
A truly ethical replacement would not need a phone number
And would have FOSS implementations of reference server & client + an openly specified protocol.
Like Matrix.
Matrix still has it’s problems. All the meta data is still saved on every server permanently.
There is still space to improve from there.
And it would have as much spam as email.
signal requires a phone number and won’t even allow you to send sms to those that aren’t on signal.
its better, but still not great.
It used to function as a fallback SMS/MMS messenger (like how iMessage does) but when Google started moving to convert Android from SMS/MMS to RCS Signal made the hard decision to cut the fallback functionality rather than follow Google’s new framework.
I personally hope once the dust settles Signal designs a RCS engine and restores the fallback functionality.
Yeah killing the sms function was basically a deal breaker for me, no matter how much I tried I could only get three people to use Signal, the rest were all sms. When the sms feature was removed 2 of the 3 dropped Signal completely, so now the only person I know who still uses it is my mom and even she still flips back and forth between Signal and Google messages when texting me.
I still have Signal on my phone and suggest it people when they ask how to contact me, but everyone just wants to text my phone number.
If you need to send sms to someone not on signal, why not just send them an sms
if they need my phone number to have an account anyway, they can offer both.
i dont need more apps that do the same thing. i need less.
It’s arguably a very bad idea for a secure messenger to also provide an SMS interface, since those are basically cleartext
exactly. so I’m wondering what the purpose is for its need.
(edit: apologies- the phone number. needing the phone number.)
What? You use a secure messenger to send secure messages. It doesn’t make sense for a secure messenger to offer sending insecure messages (SMS).
Edit: oh, you’re probably referring to why it requires a phone number. This seems to be due to abuse/spam prevention, as otherwise creating new accounts to spam people with is basically free.
using the phone number is still a pretty unnecessary risk, imho.
there’s no real need for it any longer.
Do you have a better approach to prevent spam in mind? Without a barrier of entry it becomes a serious issue.
signal not being on fdroid is a strike against them
It is though. I currently use Signal installed through F-Droid. You just need to add a separate repository.
Fair. There is Molly on fdroid if you like.
Molly is great.
Can’t find it though
Forgot- you gotta add their repo.
Signal is on F-Droid.
You can always install a release of any Android APK from a git repo using Obtainium.
