First things first, I don’t doubt it is a bad thing, considering who supports it and who doesn’t.
But my question is what exactly is the issue and what is the current and proposed voting process when it comes to IDs?
Here in my EU country, you have to show some version of a government ID, be it an ID card, drivers license or passport. And we don’t have to pre-register to vote.
If it validates a conspiracy theory then has it not proven the conspiracy theory to be more likly. When one is doing science and one discovered evidence that supports a conclusion you cannot dismiss the evidence or change you methodology to avoid the evidence simply because you don’t like what the evidence implies. Follow the science mate don’t change ur methodology cos the science disagrees with ur preconceived notions.
Voter fraud is incredibly rare in the US. The conspiracy theory is that elections are horrifically insecure and the result of every vote is fraudulent.
The proposed voter id laws take that as an inroad to erode the right to vote for all citizens.
How can u know its rare worhout checking id? I’m not a us citizen whats stopping me from walking into a polling booth and voting? It seems pretty insecure to me. One cannot simply assert an assumption and proclaim it to be true.
In 25 years of records, there have been fewer than 1500 convictions for voter fraud. In Arizona, there were 36 proven cases against 42 million ballots cast.
The wonderful thing here is you aren’t American, so you convince yourself far more thoroughly than my words ever could. The election is Tuesday, come over and try to vote.
U didn’t address my point. Without id how can u know if the fraud isnt happening. Absense of evidence is not evidence of absence. Its not like they send an FBI agent to go id a couple hundred people to do a proper statistical analysis. They caught the dumbest most obvious worst offenders that’s it.
Ur stats are the absolute lowest bound they are not a statistical sample. Ur attempt at purposefully implicating that it is such when it is not is very telling of your priorities here.
A sarcastic reply does not count as good faith argument do better.
I don’t have to do better - you’ve already made up your mind and are just here to muddy the waters by “just asking questions” you could easily lookup yourself.
Have a blessed day.
I’m not here to ask questions or muddy waters. I’m here to present a logical factual argument in favour of achieving my goals. Your failure to answer or engage in good faith is my endgame as it proves that your argument cannot hold up to basic logical strutiny. Your here to win I’m here to discover the truth by presenting what I believe is the best hypothesis. Your failure to disprove my hypothesis or provide evidence in favour of your own is either a failure or ur capability as a good faith rational actor or failure of your hypothesis.
Google it my friend. It’s very easy to detect fraud when you’re working with big numbers.
In some cases yes in others no. Financial fraud large numbers makes it east to detect via per digit variations. Voting doesn’t follow this.
This isn’t an argument it’s an appeal to irrelevance.
I’m with you mate, as an European and after reading some of the comments I still have no clue how they monitor voting without any ID… I assume everyone has to pre-register but how do they do that without an ID? Birth certificates? Also, I’m antifascist which doesn’t mean I don’t believe in organizing society in an efficient way to minimize the chance of cheating to a minimum. In an ideal world there would be no borders and we could vote wherever we live but as I understand the US seems to have a vulnerable system and fascists are using it as an argument in favour of their current agenda… It’s likely a complex issue to solve due to other complex issues that have been left unsolved throughout the years but not admiting it to “own the fascist Republicans” is not the way to approach it imo.
Registering to vote is done by proving citizenship and residency, this is the step at which documents are checked. Doing it again at the polls duplicates work for little benefit.
The US system isn’t vulnerable. In order to meaningfully swing an election, it would require massed coordination between millions of people spread across hundreds of precincts. Each one would need to know that the person they are pretending to be has not voted and is not planning to vote after them - multiple voters for a single voter registration begins an investigation.
Voter rolls are purged frequently, so inactive registrations are not widely available for this kind of fraud. The rules vary by state, but generally if the voter does not cast a ballot for 2 consecutive elections they are deactivated.
Voters can only vote at their assigned polling places, meaning any large scale fraud must be distributed, increasing the number of people who must be involved and decreasing the likelihood it goes undetected.
So the argument against voter id is that some people can’t get the id they need due to financial reasons or whatever and thus this is disenfranchising minorities. But if you need that very same id to register to vote then your entire argument falls flat on its face.
Ahh this asshole again. Can you confine the bad faith arguments to one thread?
The documents used to prove residency and citizenship aren’t exclusively photo IDs. Voter ID laws of recent conversation have all required photo IDs.
Different IDs. Not ‘the very same’ IDs.
Which you would know if you cared about any of this beyond mud slinging and muddying the waters.
Can we discuss the facts and evidance for arguments not hurl personal insults its such activity us unbecoming of a good faith rational actor.
So as previously stated or can be verified by googling: every single state that currently has photo id requirements for voting either issues a specific voter id for free or waives the fees on existing id if the stated purpose is for voting. Any id requirements or requirements in general for voting are by federal law activities that must have a free option this protection already exists.
The prerequisite id to obtain the free id is the very same id as the id required for voter registration. Most notably birth certificates the form of id most commonly claimed via people in this thread to be hardest to obtain/produce for these alleged disenfranchised groups by people in this thread.
I’m not muddying water I’m simply drawing attention to the hypocrscy of your argument. To resolve your hypocracy you must either argue in favour of abolising all id requirements for voter registration or recind your argument against id requirements for voting. I understand the desire to have ones cake and eat it too but unfortunately that’s not how things work.
More words don’t make a stronger argument.
You are conflating registering to vote with requiring specific IDs at the polls, they are obviously different. Making a voting ID free to obtain is a constitutional requirement - not ‘federal law’. Making it free is not equivalent to making it easily obtainable. A key consideration against the current round of voter ID is the requirements would disenfranchise orders of magnitude more valid voters than the number of illegal ballots that have ever been cast in the US.
U.S. Passport or Passport Card - more than half of Americans don’t have one, it is a monthslong process to obtain (and not free).
REAL ID Compliant Driver’s License or Identification Card — only if it explicitly indicates U.S. citizenship on its face which the vast majority of state-issued REAL IDs do not do.
Valid U.S. Military Identification Card (that lists a place of birth in the U.S.).
Valid Tribal Photo Identification Document Issued by a federally recognized Tribal government and carrying an expiration date - most tribal IDs do not have expiration dates.
Valid Government-Issued Photo ID showing a U.S. place of birth - this would be a new class of IDs as no common photo ID lists POB.
#Two-Document Combination Option
If an applicant has a standard government-issued photo ID that does not state citizenship or place of birth on its face it must be accompanied by one of the following secondary proof-of-citizenship documents:
Certified U.S. Birth Certificate
Consular Report of Birth Abroad (CRBA) issued by the U.S. Department of State.
Certificate of Naturalization or Certificate of Citizenship issued by USCIS/federal government.
Extract of a United States Civil Record of Birth.
Each of the above items must match exactly the name on the ID. Anyone who changed their name when they married would be denied. Anyone who’s name is recorded differently in hospital, state, and federal systems (incredibly common for middle names and Jr, II, etc.) would be denied until they secure court orders to correct their records in these systems - As a personal note, I’ve been trying to do this for myself for 8 years.
The SAVE act directs states to set up a new appeals process for these denials, which then gives authority over 10s of millions of voter registrations to county admin staff and effectively guarantees unequal enforcement.
The SAVE act further mandates voter rolls be purged every 30 days, so the onerous process above would need to be repeated if the voter ever misses an election.
After going through this to register, the voter then needs to show the same documents in order to be able to vote. The poll worker needs to make the same determinations based on these documents as the admin staff did when reviewing them at registration, or they deny the voter. Any mistakes are civil and criminal liabilities for the poll worker.
This goes far beyond “show your ID to vote :3”.
If you want to discuss the “facts and evidance[sic]” then how about you present the facts for the problem this step is supposed to solve?